ball lodges with defensive player

[Roger Greene]

Fed rules. (all cites 2004 book)
Looking at this years book I find that 8-4-3m covers a live ball that lodges in the umpire's or offensive player's uniform or equipment (not lose equipment). The ball is dead in that case and the umpire places the runner(s) at the bases they would have reached in his judgement.

5-1-1g covers a ball lodged with F2. The penalty is then one base on a pitch, 2 bases on a thrown ball. (8-4-3c & 8-1-3g)

A live ball lodged in any other players uniform or equipment (properly worn) does not seem to be covered. It does not fall under the definition of blocked ball.

I can find no case plays to cover this.

Does ASA or any other code have a ruling on a ball that lodges with a defensive player other than F2?

Thanks,
Roger Greene

[CecilOne]

I can't recall any unless it fits within the improper use of equipment by a defensive player (e.g., catching ball in removed cap).

[Steve M]

Both ASA and NCAA state that a ball lodged in a defensive player's clothing is live. ASA Rule 8, Section 4, Article I and NCAA Rule 9, Section 1, Article C.

Acually, ASA sez that the runner(s) is entitled to advance with liability to be put out and NCAA just states that the ball is live.

[Roger Greene]

Given the ASA/NCAA position, how do we rule on this?

Ground ball to F3 goes inside her jersey. F3 clutches the ball to her chest with her hand but not removing it from her jersey, and steps on 1st base.

Out as ball is grasped by her hand even though inside her jersey, or safe as the ball is not caught/held but lodged inside her uniform? (Personally I'd lean to not held securly until removed from uniform.)

MLB recently clairified their ruling on this, FED baseball has been clear for some time. I hadn't caught the difference until last week.

Roger Greene

[Skahtboi]

Roger:

You bring up an interesting point here. The only resolution that I can find, concerning NFHS rules on the live ball lodged in a defensive player's uniform other than F2, is to look at the elaborate dead ball tables that NFHS have. Since the ball being lodged in a defensive player's uniform is not listed in these tables, then the ball must be live.

How's that for sound reasoning???

[TexBlue]

Yeah, I gotta go with you. If the defensive player is holding the ball with her jersey, that is not demonstrating control to me. I've got a safe call.

[whiskers_ump]

Hmmmm,

Show me the ball

[Roger Greene]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
Hmmmm,

Show me the ball

I should have known who would be first.

[whiskers_ump]

Roger,

I do have a NFHS question for you.

We had an umpire/coaches get together on the DP/FLEX.
after that we covered any questions coaches had. One was
very interesting. Coach hosting meet brought out two new
softballs still in box. Both had the NFHS Authenticating
Mark as required. COR.47. One had the compression stamp-
ed on it as .375, the other blank. As the plate umpire
would you accept both, or if coach just handed you two w/o
compression stamp but Authenticating Mark and COR.47 would
you accept them. The one w/o compression stamp was a COR.47
compression .525

[Roger Greene]

Glenn,
I would require both balls to be marked with the same stamps, including compression. I think that is the intention of 1-3-5 & 6.

If I am aware the that the balls are in excess of the 375 lbs compression, then I would not allow them to be used.

If the compression is not marked, but the coach tells me they are legal, I would probably take his word for it absent evidence to the contrary. If he has intentionally misled me, I would guess that he is opening himself up to some pretty serious liability.

Roger Greene

[Edited by Roger Greene on Jan 27th, 2004 at 10:03 PM]

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
Given the ASA/NCAA position, how do we rule on this?

Ground ball to F3 goes inside her jersey. F3 clutches the ball to her chest with her hand but not removing it from her jersey, and steps on 1st base.

Out as ball is grasped by her hand even though inside her jersey, or safe as the ball is not caught/held but lodged inside her uniform? (Personally I'd lean to not held securly until removed from uniform.)

MLB recently clairified their ruling on this, FED baseball has been clear for some time. I hadn't caught the difference until last week.

Roger Greene
[/B]

If the ball is live it is playable, so the question is whether the jersey between the ball and the hand prevents control. Is this different than a ball caught with the "bare" hand wearing a batting glove? However, "lodged in a defensive player's clothing" being in the book defines that as different, so I would say it is not the same as caught, therefore safe. Bet you could sell either side.
Does a "baseball" ruling really matter?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne

Does a "baseball" ruling really matter? [/B]

Don't you dare

Look at it this way. Can the player throw the ball away? If not, she must not have total control, or at least none which she can demonstrate without some possible embarrassment.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by CecilOne
Does a "baseball" ruling really matter?

Only if your intent is to poke Mike!

Originally posted by CecilOne
Is this different than a ball caught with the "bare" hand wearing a batting glove? However, "lodged in a defensive player's clothing" being in the book defines that as different, so I would say it is not the same as caught, therefore safe. Bet you could sell either side.

It's more like the ball being trapped between the player's arm and body... the Rule Book / POE / Case Book (sorry, I don't have my "stuff" with me today - but I think this is covered in a POE) make it clear that trapping the ball against the body is not a catch. Sure, you could sell either one, but SAFE is correct.

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by Dakota
It's more like the ball being trapped between the player's arm and body... the Rule Book / POE / Case Book (sorry, I don't have my "stuff" with me today - but I think this is covered in a POE) make it clear that trapping the ball against the body is not a catch. Sure, you could sell either one, but SAFE is correct.

Quoting from the NFHS Rule book:

A catch shall not be credited if:

a: A fielder catches a batted, pitched, or thrown ball with anything other than her hand(s) or glove/mitt in its proper place.

[mcrowder]

But there is a difference between "a catch", and "possession". I'd be inclined to rule that a ball firmly grasped by the hand, even if inside the jersey, is possession (especially if the uniform was loose enough that the player could pull the ball away from the body with the hand and maintain control).