EP, DP, FLEX points

[Cecil4]

Ignore pool play for this topic, but please comment on any or all of the lined sections.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is USA Rule 4.4.G
G. (Junior Olympic Fast Pitch) Any batter listed in addition to the nine defensive players and DP if used. They can be listed anywhere in the batting order.

This wording in May 2022 Plays & Clarifications could be confusing, as teams can actually bat 11 (my bolding).

Section E also allows the use of the DP/ FLEX and bat 10 with an EP.

Play: (Fast Pitch) The team at bat is using an EP, batting 10 players and using the DP/FLEX. In the 3rd inning one of the 10 players in the batting order goes in for the FLEX to play defense. The plate umpire reminds the coach that this a substitution and they just went from 11 in the line-up, 10 in the line-up batting with the DP FLEX to 10 in the line-up with the FLEX now being out of the game.

Ruling: This is correct. When batting 10 and using the DP/FLEX if any of the 10 players play defense for the FLEX, the FLEX has left the game. Rule 4, Section 1C [1] [D&E] and Rule 4, Section 3E.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rule 4.3.B says the FLEX will be placed in the 10th position in the lineup.

That does not allow for an EP pushing the FLEX down to 11th.

Or, does rule 4.4.G saying "anywhere in the batting order" allow the EP to be 11th.

Does "batting order" exclude the FLEX, a non-batter?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also don't see in the rules that an EP can play defense for the FLEX. Rule 4.4.F "The person being batted for (FLEX) may be substituted for at any time, by a legal substitute or the DP for whom the FLEX is playing defense. "

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Cecil4

Does "batting order" exclude the FLEX, a non-batter?

Yes. The USA Softball definition of "batting order" is the official listing of offensive players in the order in which they bat. (USA Rule 1).

While the letter of the law is unclear now, the original intent remains. In the original DP/FLEX rule, the Flex is listed last on the lineup (10th). The Flex must play defense at all times to remain in the game, and any other 8 of the 9 in the batting order fill the rest of the defensive positions. The Flex can bat for the DP only, in the spot in the order where the DP was listed at pregame.

Now that an EP is sanctioned, if and EP is used, the Flex is still listed last on the lineup (11th). The Flex must play defense at all times to remain in the game, and any 8 of the 10 in the batting order fill the rest of the defensive positions. The Flex can bat for the DP.

4.4.F refers to the fact that the Flex can be subbed for: any legal substitute or the DP. The EP is not a legal substitute; she is a starter.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Yes. The USA Softball definition of "batting order" is the official listing of offensive players in the order in which they bat. (USA Rule 1).

While the letter of the law is unclear now, the original intent remains. In the original DP/FLEX rule, the Flex is listed last on the lineup (10th). The Flex must play defense at all times to remain in the game, and any other 8 of the 9 in the batting order fill the rest of the defensive positions. The Flex can bat for the DP only, in the spot in the order where the DP was listed at pregame.

Now that an EP is sanctioned, if and EP is used, the Flex is still listed last on the lineup (11th). The Flex must play defense at all times to remain in the game, and any 8 of the 10 in the batting order fill the rest of the defensive positions. The Flex can bat for the DP.

4.4.F refers to the fact that the Flex can be subbed for: any legal substitute or the DP. The EP is not a legal substitute; she is a starter.

The rules are contradictory, as we all know. The March 2022 Plays and Clarifications state, in part:

[snip] Can the EP play defense?**Yes, an EP can play defense at any time in any position.**Can the EP play defense for the FLEX if the team is using the EP in addition to the DP/FLEX?**Yes, the EP can play defense for the FLEX and the FLEX has left the game and has one re-entry. [snip]

This is the result of mixing the EP rule from the slowpitch universe with the DP/Flex rule from the fastpitch universe.