The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 07, 2019, 09:17am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,349
State Interp on NFHS Physical Assistance Rule

Been having a long-term debate with other umpires about the NFHS rule regarding physical assistance of a base runner. Two rules in the book address this:

Quote:
Rule: 3-5-4
ART. 4 . . . A coach shall not physically assist a runner during playing action.
PENALTY: (Art. 4) The runner is out and the ball is in play. (8-6-5)

Rule: 8-6-5
A runner is out when:
ART. 5 . . . Any offensive team member, other than another runner, physically assists the runner.
PENALTY: (Arts. 1 through 5) The ball is in play and the runner is out.
Because both rules specify that the ball is still in play, some umpires felt that the violation may occur only when the ball is live. They didn't believe a coach or other team member who physically assists a runner when the ball was dead (e.g., BR hits a home run, misses first base as she's rounding the bases, and the first base coach chases her down, grabs her and send her back to touch first) was a violation.

I asked our state interpreter for his take, and he said that an out is ruled when a runner is physically assisted at any time, whether the ball is live or dead. It would be nice if there's language in the rule book or casebook that says this.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 07, 2019, 10:12am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
he said that an out is ruled when a runner is physically assisted at any time, whether the ball is live or dead. .
I know it was baseball but the 1B coach grabbed McGwire when he missed 1B on one of his record-setting HRs.

CSFP says it doesn't matter with a dead ball as no advantage is gained. I don't think any rule actually specify the live/dead aspect though.
__________________
Rich Ives
Different does not equate to wrong
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 07, 2019, 11:40am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
I know it was baseball but the 1B coach grabbed McGwire when he missed 1B on one of his record-setting HRs.

CSFP says it doesn't matter with a dead ball as no advantage is gained. I don't think any rule actually specify the live/dead aspect though.
Unfortunately unlike baseball, softball umpires don't all believe in using CSFP to make calls. They pretty much expect everything to be cited in a rulebook, case play, or some other authoritative interpretation. And deviating from what is written in the name of CSFP is met with calls of an umpire being rogue and wanting to put themselves above the game.

This is a USA Softball (ASA at the time) case play that came out in May 2010:

Quote:
Play: (Fast Pitch) with one out B2 hits an over the fence home run. While rounding 1B the runner stumbles and appears to have been injured. The first base coach (a) rushes on to the field to make sure B2 is ok. While checking the player for injuries the coach directs B2 back to 1B because they missed the base or (b) after B2 gets up and continues to 2B, the coach sprints onto the field, grabs B2 and tells B2 to come back to touch 1B.

Ruling: Rule 8 Section 7E addresses an offensive team member other than a runner that physically assists a runner while the ball is live. There is also an exception for when a runner scores and misses home plate.

An over the fence home run considered, by definition of a Dead Ball, as a ball that is not in play. We have other rules that apply when runners must run the bases on over the fence home runs.

A home run awards the batter 4 bases without liability to be put out except under appeal or protest. In the case of (a) once the coach came onto the field to check a possible injured play the umpire should call time to see if the player needed to be replaced. (Rule 4, Section 10) If the coach helps the player up and directs them to touch first base again there is not violation of the rules. In (b) the coach specifically went onto the field to grab the runner and assisted B2 in returning to touch 1B. In doing so the coach has taken away the ability of the defense to appeal the runner for missing 1B and therefore should be called out for a violation of Rule 8 Section 7E.
So under USA rules, they believe (and I agree) that when a base coach or other team member other than a fellow runner assists a runner during a dead ball and, as a result, takes away the defense's opportunity to appeal a missed base, this is a form of illegal physical assistance that would result in an out. According to my state interpreter, the same would be the case in NFHS play.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 07, 2019, 11:44am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
Been having a long-term debate with other umpires about the NFHS rule regarding physical assistance of a base runner. Two rules in the book address this:

3-5-4, 8-6-5

Because both rules specify that the ball is still in play, some umpires felt that the violation may occur only when the ball is live. They didn't believe a coach or other team member who physically assists a runner when the ball was dead (e.g., BR hits a home run, misses first base as she's rounding the bases, and the first base coach chases her down, grabs her and send her back to touch first) was a violation.

I asked our state interpreter for his take, and he said that an out is ruled when a runner is physically assisted at any time, whether the ball is live or dead. It would be nice if there's language in the rule book or casebook that says this.
I would interpret these as the ball remains live for further play if live at the time.
Given the lack of completeness in a lot of rules; especially those added because of an issue; no reason to think the HR example is not an out, just as it would be if the runner continued with a missed base.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 07, 2019, 11:51am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 720
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
I know it was baseball but the 1B coach grabbed McGwire when he missed 1B on one of his record-setting HRs.

CSFP says it doesn't matter with a dead ball as no advantage is gained. I don't think any rule actually specify the live/dead aspect though.
What is CSFP?
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 08, 2019, 10:16am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
I would interpret these as the ball remains live for further play if live at the time.
Given the lack of completeness in a lot of rules; especially those added because of an issue; no reason to think the HR example is not an out, just as it would be if the runner continued with a missed base.
And yet during a discussion in one of the FB groups, a lot of umpires believed that there cannot be a physical assistance violation when the ball is dead. It's what prompted me to reach out to my state interpreter for his take.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 08, 2019, 10:25am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
What is CSFP?
"Common Sense and Fair Play". It's a phrase used by many baseball umpires to make a ruling that otherwise would be considered a ruthless enforcement of a rule. Another phrase they use is "call with the book, not by the book."
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 10, 2019, 10:54am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
"Common Sense and Fair Play". It's a phrase used by many baseball umpires to make a ruling that otherwise would be considered a ruthless enforcement of a rule. Another phrase they use is "call with the book, not by the book."
Which can create an inconsistent enforcement of the rules
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 10, 2019, 11:37am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Which can create an inconsistent enforcement of the rules
R1 is tripped by F6 while rounding 2B on a gapper, breaking a leg on the fall. Tagged out on the relay while lying on the ground in pain.

What do you do and what rule(s) do you use?


R1 trips over 2B while rounding 2B on a hit up the middle, breaking a leg on the fall. F8 throws her glove at and it contacts the ball. R1 is tagged out on the relay while lying on the ground in pain.

What do you do and what rule(s) do you use?
__________________
Rich Ives
Different does not equate to wrong

Last edited by Rich Ives; Sat Aug 10, 2019 at 11:40am.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 10, 2019, 11:57am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
R1 is tripped by F6 while rounding 2B on a gapper, breaking a leg on the fall. Tagged out on the relay while lying on the ground in pain.

What do you do and what rule(s) do you use?


R1 trips over 2B while rounding 2B on a hit up the middle, breaking a leg on the fall. F8 throws her glove at and it contacts the ball. R1 is tagged out on the relay while lying on the ground in pain.

What do you do and what rule(s) do you use?
I think we've discussed at least the first scenario on this board at one point.

The first is a case of OBS, and the runner(s) would be awarded the base(s) they would have reached without the OBS. If required, a substitute (or another player if sub not available) could come in to run for the injured player.

The second case is a DDB which in this case would result in the batter being awarded 3B. Runners ahead of the batter/runner would be advanced to home.

You didn't add the trick part about the injured runner being passed by other runner(s). They would be awarded bases as above based on the umpire's judgment.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 10, 2019, 12:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
R1 is tripped by F6 while rounding 2B on a gapper, breaking a leg on the fall. Tagged out on the relay while lying on the ground in pain.

What do you do and what rule(s) do you use?


R1 trips over 2B while rounding 2B on a hit up the middle, breaking a leg on the fall. F8 throws her glove at and it contacts the ball. R1 is tagged out on the relay while lying on the ground in pain.

What do you do and what rule(s) do you use?
1 dead ball for injury
- a - can't be out when OBS
b - dead ball after tag, sub runner awarded base R1 would have reached.

2 - dead ball for injury, sub runner awarded base R1 would have reached, plus three bases from the time of the pitch
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Really? Seriously? (NFHS Interp) Rich Softball 6 Sat Mar 06, 2010 01:38pm
Silly NCAA runner assistance rule... Dakota Softball 70 Fri May 08, 2009 08:44am
New official - need assistance on rule RSmith Basketball 2 Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:45am
DP reentry interp. in NFHS CecilOne Softball 8 Fri Apr 02, 2004 12:07pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:48pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1