You make the call: INT by BR on a potential IFF

[Altor]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I still can't agree with that statement. When it is hit and reaches its zenith is when it should be called. A ball left to fall untouched that bounces into foul territory (before passing first or third) then has to un-call the batter being out.

NFHS Rule 8-2-5
The batter-runner shall be called out when:
ART. 9 . . . She hits an infield fly. (2-30)


It may take the umpires a moment to recognize it, but this rule is fairly clear that she's out when she hit it.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Altor

NFHS Rule 8-2-5
The batter-runner shall be called out when:
ART. 9 . . . She hits an infield fly. (2-30)


It may take the umpires a moment to recognize it, but this rule is fairly clear that she's out when she hit it.

Thank you, Altor. I already acknowledged the wording in the rules book.

But she's not out when she hits it, and then it bounces untouched to foul territory.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Thank you, Altor. I already acknowledged the wording in the rules book.

But she's not out when she hits it, and then it bounces untouched to foul territory.

I'm starting to agree with Cecil that the rule as written is a potential mess.

Let's stick with what's on video: In a high school game, a BR hit an infield fly, which in the future would become a fair ball. By strict reading of NFHS 2-30, the batter is out (retired) at this point and the ball remains live. This player, the BR, then interferes with F3 attempting to make a play on a batted ball. The penalty for retired runner interference is, as we all know, runner closest to home is out.

Now, let's go hypothetical: In an IF situation, BR hits a fly ball that is over foul territory when she interferes with F3 making a play. Dead ball, one out (the BR), and all runners return to base last touched at TOI, right?

Hypothetical #2: In an IF situation BR hits a fly ball which is not caught before hitting the ground and rolls/spins foul. BR interferes with F3's attempt to field this foul ground ball. Dead ball; foul ball; add a strike only if there are not already 2, right?

[Altor]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

But she's not out when she hits it, and then it bounces untouched to foul territory.

Then she didn't hit an infield fly.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Altor

Then she didn't hit an infield fly.

Or in the NOTE:

When an infield fly is not initially called, the batter-runner is declared out if brought to the umpire's attention before the next pitch.

So the batter is out WHEN?

[Altor]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Or in the NOTE:

When an infield fly is not initially called, the batter-runner is declared out if brought to the umpire's attention before the next pitch.

So the batter is out WHEN?

When she hit the infield fly. Again, just because the umpire didn't recognize it immediately, doesn't mean she wasn't out.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Altor

When she hit the infield fly. Again, just because the umpire didn't recognize it immediately, doesn't mean she wasn't out.

There's language ambiguity about when she hit an infield fly. If I say: when she hits a ball that becomes an infield fly; that is unambiguous. If I say: when a ball she hits meets the conditions for an infield fly; that is unambiguous. What the rule says can be read both ways.

Consider for example if I say she hit the dugout with a foul ball. Surely the moment she hit it was when it touched the dugout. Not quite parallel structure but still reasonably read that way.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by youngump

Consider for example if I say she hit the dugout with a foul ball. Surely the moment she hit it was when it touched the dugout. Not quite parallel structure but still reasonably read that way.

Nope. This is a perfect example.

Rule 8-5-1:
A runner must return to the last base legally occupied when:
ART. 1 . . . A batted ball is foul.

So, a high popup over the third base dugout. R1 crosses home plate before the ball hits the dugout. Since the batted ball didn't become foul until the moment it touched the dugout, you score that run?

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Altor

NFHS Rule 8-2-5
The batter-runner shall be called out when:
ART. 9 . . . She hits an infield fly. (2-30)


It may take the umpires a moment to recognize it, but this rule is fairly clear that she's out when she hit it.

And read rule NFHS 2-30 "Infield fly", specifically . . "a fair ball" and then read what makes a ball fair NFHS 2-20.

That's why we say: "Infield fly, the batter is out, IF FAIR". The batter isn't out until the ball is fair by NFHS 2-20 or USA 1 - Fair ball.

[Altor]

If your logic is that the ball is not fair until the criteria of 2-20 are met, then your logic must also be that a ball is not foul until the criteria of 2-25 are met.

So, after reading 8-5-1, you must allow runners to keep any bases they reach during a high foul ball. Or a little spinner down the line where the runners have all advanced at least one base before the ball crossed the line from fair to foul before being picked up? That was the last base they legally occupied when the ball became foul, right?

[chapmaja]

The part I am having trouble with on this is the interference part. Can someone please post a reference to why this was called interference by the batter runner (retired batter). She certainly does continue to run to first base, but I don't see anything in her running to first base that interferes with F3's ability to catch the ball. I simply see F3 misplay the ball.

Looking back to the 2013 casebook, there is a comment about a runner continuing to run and drawing a throw may be considered interference. In this case I the runner continued to run, but does appear to do anything to physical interfere with the ability to catch the ball. The same comment is in the 2016 casebook.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

The part I am having trouble with on this is the interference part. Can someone please post a reference to why this was called interference by the batter runner (retired batter). She certainly does continue to run to first base, but I don't see anything in her running to first base that interferes with F3's ability to catch the ball. I simply see F3 misplay the ball.

Easy, who ever made the decision was wrong, as who ever decided the outcome of this play (I believe the guy in blue jeans and the shoulder stripped navy jacket) was wrong.

[Tru_in_Blu]

My thanx to Big Slick for a compelling argument on this subject.

I initially thought this play could result in 2 outs. I no longer think that based on Slick's excellent citations.

I will stick to my opinion that I think the BR interfered w/ F3. That's a judgment call that an umpire has to make in short order before chaos breaks out.

I've had similar plays where the BR runs very close to the fielder, sometimes in an intimidating manner to make the fielder wary of a collision. When I can actually see the fielder flinch as the runner goes past, I know they were hindered. Whether they catch the ball or not, they were still interfered with.

Some folks continue to debate when the batter is out. I will call an IF when I'm supposed to, but the matter isn't really settled until the ball's status has been determined. And that's what I'll say about that.

Thanx to all for a lively and informative session.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Easy, who ever made the decision was wrong, as who ever decided the outcome of this play (I believe the guy in blue jeans and the shoulder stripped navy jacket) was wrong.

Watching the video I think the first base ump did come in an was calling interference on the play. I think he was making the call live on the field but did not do so in a manner that would draw attention to himself as would be needed in a play such as this.

I think the additional person was the one who had to sort out what the penalties were in the given situation.

I do think, if the interference call was correct, the interference was done by a retired batter-runner and as such the applicable penalties were correctly applied.

My issue with the play is the calling of interference by the batter runner on this play, as I simply don't see that.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Watching the video I think the first base ump did come in an was calling interference on the play. I think he was making the call live on the field but did not do so in a manner that would draw attention to himself as would be needed in a play such as this.

I think the additional person was the one who had to sort out what the penalties were in the given situation.

I do think, if the interference call was correct, the interference was done by a retired batter-runner and as such the applicable penalties were correctly applied.

My issue with the play is the calling of interference by the batter runner on this play, as I simply don't see that.

If they called the interference on the BR interfering with F3 catching the fly ball, you can only get one out. The BR is NOT retired until the ball achieved fair status, which would be when it plugged into the ground in fair territory. If BR was out on the interference, then dead ball, 1 out.

If she was not out by interfering with F3 catching the fly ball, then she was retired when the ball became fair, but by then, she was passed F3 and she did not interfere with F3 after that. That's the only way you are getting two outs, and they didn't happen.

Read my earlier post on the two options, either interference on BR, dead ball, she is out (1 out); or no BR interference, but BR out on infield fly, and runner is safe at home. And I don't care if BR interfered or not (again, I don't think she did), but either way, getting two outs on the play is wrong.