Blew the call, nobody knows...

[jmkupka]

... and I'm still beating myself up over it.

Typical play at 1B, F3 has to stretch and controls the catch, then the glove slams to the ground and the ball pops out. BU (me) uses good timing mechanics, then, Safe! Nobody says boo.

B/R was out the split second the catch was controlled.

[RKBUmp]

Based on your description im not sure that qualifies as control. Remember, to have a catch you must have the fielder demonstrate control of the ball long enough to prove they caught it and/or voluntary release. If the fielder catches the ball, falls to the ground or collides with something and loses control it is not a catch.

[teebob21]

I don't think you kicked this. Speaking USA:

To establish a valid catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove control of it and/or that the release is voluntary.

As you describe it, I don't see voluntary release.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

... and I'm still beating myself up over it.

Typical play at 1B, F3 has to stretch and controls the catch, then the glove slams to the ground and the ball pops out. BU (me) uses good timing mechanics, then, Safe! Nobody says boo.

B/R was out the split second the catch was controlled.

It is not clear that the "glove slams to the ground" was part of the catching motion. If it was, then probably not voluntary.
If F3 was then doing another "softball move" ; might have been control.

Either way, glad you are human.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Either way, glad you are human.

Gott dang robot umps are taking over everywhere!

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

... and I'm still beating myself up over it.

Typical play at 1B, F3 has to stretch and controls the catch, then the glove slams to the ground and the ball pops out. BU (me) uses good timing mechanics, then, Safe! Nobody says boo.

B/R was out the split second the catch was controlled.

This string talks a bit about a catch and control. Judgment calls that could be debated.

A while back, I came across a case play somewhere that reminds me of "the split second" concept.

F3 fields a ground ball on a diving play towards first base. She retrieves the ball in her bare hand and has control of it. She dives for the base and with the ball in her hand manages to touch first base. But her momentum causes the ball to pop out of her hand after which the BR crosses the base.

The ruling I recall on this play was that the BR was out "the split second" that the ball touched the base. I brought this up as a question at a NUS and we had differing opinions.

I'll look, but I'm not sure I'll be able to find that play in my files.

Comments from this forum?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Ah, found it. The "high intensity data retrieval system" hard at work.

This is actually from April 2010 Plays and Clarifications...

Play: B2 slaps the pitch toward the right side of the infield and F3 fields the ball with their bare hand and dives for 1B. In the base umpire’s opinion, F3 has control of the ball and is holding the ball securely while diving on 1B and touching it with the ball. As soon as F3 touches 1B with the ball, the ball rolls loose into foul ground.

Ruling: This is a judgment call by the umpire in regards to F3 having control of the ball when touching 1B. The runner should be ruled out if the umpire judged the fielder had possession of the ball at the time of touching the base, regardless of the ball coming loose after touching the base. The issue is control for that split second that the ball touches the base. If control is established when the fielder touches the base B2 would be out.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Ah, found it. The "high intensity data retrieval system" hard at work.

This is actually from April 2010 Plays and Clarifications...

Play: B2 slaps the pitch toward the right side of the infield and F3 fields the ball with their bare hand and dives for 1B. In the base umpire’s opinion, F3 has control of the ball and is holding the ball securely while diving on 1B and touching it with the ball. As soon as F3 touches 1B with the ball, the ball rolls loose into foul ground.

Ruling: This is a judgment call by the umpire in regards to F3 having control of the ball when touching 1B. The runner should be ruled out if the umpire judged the fielder had possession of the ball at the time of touching the base, regardless of the ball coming loose after touching the base. The issue is control for that split second that the ball touches the base. If control is established when the fielder touches the base B2 would be out.

So, a judgment call, not much of a clarification, like many others.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Ah, found it. The "high intensity data retrieval system" hard at work.

This is actually from April 2010 Plays and Clarifications...

Play: B2 slaps the pitch toward the right side of the infield and F3 fields the ball with their bare hand and dives for 1B. In the base umpire’s opinion, F3 has control of the ball and is holding the ball securely while diving on 1B and touching it with the ball. As soon as F3 touches 1B with the ball, the ball rolls loose into foul ground.

Ruling: This is a judgment call by the umpire in regards to F3 having control of the ball when touching 1B. The runner should be ruled out if the umpire judged the fielder had possession of the ball at the time of touching the base, regardless of the ball coming loose after touching the base. The issue is control for that split second that the ball touches the base. If control is established when the fielder touches the base B2 would be out.

It would be a very hard sell to claim that F3 had control "for that split second that the ball touches the base". I have to believe the reason the ball came loose was because it was jarred out of F3's hand the moment she contacted the base with the ball.

[jmkupka]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Based my thoughts on the play where F6 catches the throw at 2B for a force out, a split-second later gets bumped by the runner coming into 2B and dislodges the ball. If your judgement has that catch controlled for that split second, the runner was out at that moment.

In my OP, I had control, the slam of the glove on the ground was a separate act. Shouldve been an out.

[jmkupka]

Your scenario reminds me of the bases-loaded, 2-out bunt that settles to a stop on the plate. F2 picks up the ball. Is R1 on 3B called out in the infinitesimal moment of picking the ball up (when it was still in contact with the plate)?

If I recall, that thread was debated for several pages

[Rich Ives]

If the force of making the tag caused the ball to be dropped then the fielder didn't have control and the ball wasn't held firmly.

[jmkupka]

Nope, it's not the force of the tag that cause the ball to come out (it's not a tag play), in the OP it's the impact of the glove hitting the ground after the out was made on the force play.

On a tag, the ball has to be controlled throughout the tagging process (including after the tag)...

On a force, the ball has to be controlled before the runner touches the base. What happens after doesnt affect the out.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

On a tag, the ball has to be controlled throughout the tagging process (including after the tag)...

Not strictly true but it's not bad shorthand. I've posted this before, but since this thread is current I'll say it again. Per the book, you only need control for the moment of the tag or the force out. But on a real ball field where you have to make a judgment about control, if the ball came loose as a result of the tagging action, it's generally good judgment to judge that she didn't have control before the tag.

Similarly it's possible from reading the book alone that the outfielder had full control and then voluntarily opened her glove to let the ball hit the grass. On a field call it no catch.

As to your OP, if you judged control and then a subsequent action caused loss of control, you had the ruling wrong. If you had judged that the inability to control the ball through the ground indicated she never actually fully had it, then your ruling would be right. You seem convinced of your (second guessing) judgment here. Honestly, the reason I think you got no grief is that everyone else thought you got the call right. How were they supposed to know you only got it right because your bad judgment was balanced by kicking the rule ?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Nope, it's not the force of the tag that cause the ball to come out (it's not a tag play), in the OP it's the impact of the glove hitting the ground after the out was made on the force play.

On a tag, the ball has to be controlled throughout the tagging process (including after the tag)...

On a force, the ball has to be controlled before the runner touches the base. What happens after doesnt affect the out.

It IS a tag play. You are tagging the base, not the runner, but it is a tag play. Unless softball is different, the tag has to be made while the ball is held securely and firmly in the hand or glove. Popped out - wasn't. No tag.