The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 15, 2018, 10:33am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 2,663
3 umpire situation

Was watching one of our State Championship games last night with a group of umpires and a situation came up that got us talking....

3 umpire system, no runners on base.

High popup to short left field, F6 is moving backward and makes the catch easily on the edge of the grass. U3 turned to watch the catch, but PU makes the out call and signal with no signal from U3.

The discussion was whether or not U3 should have been moving toward second base since there was no chase. My initial thought was that she should have been, but upon thinking a bit more, I can see why she didn't.

When the ball came off the bat, it looked like it was going to be a deeper fly ball that required a chase, by the time U3 read that the ball was in fact much shallower than that, her path to second would have taken her in front of F6 attempting to catch the ball and could potentially be a distraction, although U3 would have been well in front of F6.

Thoughts?
__________________
It's what you learn after you think you know it all that's important!
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 15, 2018, 10:57am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Was watching one of our State Championship games last night with a group of umpires and a situation came up that got us talking....

3 umpire system, no runners on base.

High popup to short left field, F6 is moving backward and makes the catch easily on the edge of the grass. U3 turned to watch the catch, but PU makes the out call and signal with no signal from U3.

The discussion was whether or not U3 should have been moving toward second base since there was no chase. My initial thought was that she should have been, but upon thinking a bit more, I can see why she didn't.

When the ball came off the bat, it looked like it was going to be a deeper fly ball that required a chase, by the time U3 read that the ball was in fact much shallower than that, her path to second would have taken her in front of F6 attempting to catch the ball and could potentially be a distraction, although U3 would have been well in front of F6.

Thoughts?
Yes, I have a thought.

We need to start teaching umpire to read the FIELDERS for chase situations instead of the "ball." If U3 has focused on F6 (eyes on the field), she would had seen how the play was developing and that no chase was required (and then moved to a position at second in case the ball was dropped). Trying to "guess the play by reading the ball" with her eyes skyward leads to bad reads.

This is akin to PU reading the catcher of fly balls around the plate. If PU "looks up," then there is a danger of being run over by the catcher.

I very much teach umpires to read players and not the ball for all chase situations. The only exception is when there is a question of fair/foul on a home run, as you then have to shift your focus to when the ball clears the fence. This also helps to decide who's chase area the ball is in by watching the fielder go into the chase area.

This also helps PU who doesn't work much 3 umpire because now their eyes are focused on the field. Their partners are now within the visual range. I tell people the best way to develop this skill is by working slow pitch, where there are more opportunities for fly balls.

If you want, we can discuss this theory more this summer, maybe in the mid-west, over a plate of ribs (and yes, I will be there the entire week this time).

Therefore, as to your particular play, U3 should be moving towards second by being mindful of F6 catching the ball and then not being in any throwing lane when she passes F6 (maybe a "deeper" path is optional).
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 15, 2018, 11:09am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 479
Yes, I am going to reply to my response:

Talking about chase mechanics, here is a good example here from USA softball May clarifications.

One, using my "watch the fielder theory" U1 looks to be watching F9 instead of the flight of the ball. That's good, because it puts him in a position for two elements of the play: fair/foul and catch/no catch. When you SEE the fielder runner towards the line, it is important to straddle the line for this view.

However, there is a second aspect that is stressed on the USA softball DVD's: stop-see the play-make the call (and if you can't here that with a deep, Southern draw, you need to watch the DVD's). U1 was not set to see the play (in this case, a first touch in fair territory).

BTW, U3 needed to be inside to cover first, assuming that no runners were on base, and second and STAY inside to cover third (and not be behind the play).
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 15, 2018, 11:30am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Slick View Post
Yes, I have a thought.

We need to start teaching umpire to read the FIELDERS for chase situations instead of the "ball." If U3 has focused on F6 (eyes on the field), she would had seen how the play was developing and that no chase was required (and then moved to a position at second in case the ball was dropped). Trying to "guess the play by reading the ball" with her eyes skyward leads to bad reads.

This is akin to PU reading the catcher of fly balls around the plate. If PU "looks up," then there is a danger of being run over by the catcher.

I very much teach umpires to read players and not the ball for all chase situations. The only exception is when there is a question of fair/foul on a home run, as you then have to shift your focus to when the ball clears the fence. This also helps to decide who's chase area the ball is in by watching the fielder go into the chase area.

This also helps PU who doesn't work much 3 umpire because now their eyes are focused on the field. Their partners are now within the visual range. I tell people the best way to develop this skill is by working slow pitch, where there are more opportunities for fly balls.

If you want, we can discuss this theory more this summer, maybe in the mid-west, over a plate of ribs (and yes, I will be there the entire week this time).

Therefore, as to your particular play, U3 should be moving towards second by being mindful of F6 catching the ball and then not being in any throwing lane when she passes F6 (maybe a "deeper" path is optional).
1) I recognize you have better knowledge of this than I do, but don't we have to read the ball to see if it really should be chased?

2) Also, once the U3 turned outward, shouldn't the PU yield to U3 for the call?
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 15, 2018, 12:05pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
1) I recognize you have better knowledge of this than I do, but don't we have to read the ball to see if it really should be chased?
Well, yes and no. You read the ball off the bat, as that gives you indication of location. In the case presented, U3 can read the ball off the bat as "in the air, towards left" and the picked up which fielder.

For another example, ball hit in the air to center. U1 has "first right of refusal" and then let F8 break the tie: does F8 move a step to her right (then U3 should chase) or stay still/move to her left (U1).

Basically, it is not just a "reaction to the hit" (which happened in the OP), but reading what actually is happening.

Quote:
2) Also, once the U3 turned outward, shouldn't the PU yield to U3 for the call?
If U3 communicated the chase, then yes. If any communication was present, Andy didn't say. But if U1 or U3 communicate the chase, then chase. And I have seen a chase where the ball was blown back into the infield.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2018, 09:38am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,462
As I realized at about the age of 10, the fielder will guide you to the ball.

What brought me to this revelation at such a young age? Going to pro baseball games and hearing the crowd "oooohh!" and "aaaahh!" at the big swing and loud crack of the bat only to see the infielder set up under and catch the pop-up.

[mini rant]This is also why I am not a big fan of those who insist it is necessary to watch the ball at all costs. Who cares that an umpire takes his/her eyes off a bounding ball in the outfield to monitor runners and infielders doing what they do?[/mini rant]
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 16, 2018, 01:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North Texas
Posts: 422
Half the time I don't see the ball .. I have to use the fielders! :-)
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 22, 2018, 01:24pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,062
Discussion on this situation...3-umpire system.

Runner on third base only and there is a base hit to the outfield, whose responsibility is it to cover BR at home plate?
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 22, 2018, 01:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Discussion on this situation...3-umpire system.

Runner on third base only and there is a base hit to the outfield, whose responsibility is it to cover BR at home plate?
U1, assuming your question involves no umpire chasing.

Since this is standard starting positioning, U3 would rotate to second, U1 would buttonhook and watch BR at first. PU would watch R1 touch home while moving toward a calling position at third. PU needs to communicate when he arrives at third.

As BR touches second and moves to third, U1 would rotate home, communicating that he is covering home.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 22, 2018, 08:44pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,062
Thank you, Slick. That is exactly my thinking. Actually, not even my thinking, it's right out of the mechanics.

We were told that the Plate Umpire would make the call.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 30, 2018, 10:21am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Thank you, Slick. That is exactly my thinking. Actually, not even my thinking, it's right out of the mechanics.

We were told that the Plate Umpire would make the call.
Just wondering, who (not asking names just in general) told you PU would make that call?
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 30, 2018, 11:03am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,062
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED View Post
Just wondering, who (not asking names just in general) told you PU would make that call?
It was a posted answer to a quiz we took on 3-umpire mechanics.

Someone might think that's the right answer, or the answer was mis-posted from one person to another.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MLB Umpire, UNSOLICITED, Overturns Another Umpire's Call UES Baseball 24 Sun Sep 16, 2012 08:44am
3-Umpire Mechanic Situation Dholloway1962 Softball 8 Thu Sep 24, 2009 07:56am
Don't be a good umpire be a great umpire vcblue Softball 5 Fri Jul 03, 2009 03:16pm
POI - Situation TwentyTwenty Basketball 6 Thu Feb 01, 2007 01:53pm
Rookie Umpire Situation fastpitch Softball 12 Mon May 01, 2006 10:57am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:35am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1