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Old Tue Jan 30, 2018, 09:57pm
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Question on a case play:

I had a conversation with a fellow umpire today. We were discussing when run(s) score or don't score when and how the third out of an inning occurs.

While doing some research on the matter, I came across an old case book play that I had from 2009.

It reads:

PLAY 5.5-3

(FP Only) With two outs, R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, B5 strikes out, but the ball gets by F2. R1 scores and R2 is out at the plate. B3 failed to run to 1B and F2, after tagging R2, throws to 1B for the fourth out. Does the runner score?

R1's run is not nullified. A "fourth out" appeal to nullify a run must be on the runner who has scored. (5-5C)

I'm interested in hearing some thoughts on this play.

Thanx.
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Old Wed Jan 31, 2018, 08:28am
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USA has always required a 4th out appeal to only be allowed on a runner who has scored. Somewhere in the case plays or clarifications there is another ruling stating once a 3rd out has been recorded the batter/runner is no longer expected to complete their base running requirement.
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Old Wed Jan 31, 2018, 08:49am
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You would figure there'd be a pretty visible "exception" to the basic rule (that no run will count if the batter doesn't reach 1B, or the 3d out is a force).
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Old Wed Jan 31, 2018, 09:42am
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Further research yielded this play from May 2017 Rules & Clarifications:

Play: R1 at 3B, R2 at 2B and one out. F1 throws the third strike but it gets away from F2. R1 scores as the throw from F2 to F1 goes into the infield. R2 tries to score and is thrown out at home. B4 initially watches the play at home and forgets to run. B4 is thrown out at 1B for the third out. Does R1’s run count?

Ruling: No runs would score due to the batter-runner being called out prior to reaching 1B safely as the third out. Rule 5, Section 5B[1]


This makes more sense to me and seems to be more in line with the stated rule. But there's a difference in the start to the scenarios. In the OP, there are 2 outs. In the recent example, there is only 1 out. Does it matter?
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Old Wed Jan 31, 2018, 10:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
USA has always required a 4th out appeal to only be allowed on a runner who has scored. Somewhere in the case plays or clarifications there is another ruling stating once a 3rd out has been recorded the batter/runner is no longer expected to complete their base running requirement.
RKBUmp, you have an excellent memory. Additional digging into Plays & Clarifications yielded the below.

March 2013

Fourth Out Appeal

We have had several questions in regards to the ability to make a “fourth out appeal.” We have included in this month’s Plays and Clarifications our posting about this rule from March 2008. We are sure these questions are coming up because of similar questions on the National Umpire Exam that have to do with a fourth out appeal. Hopefully a review of this posting will refresh everyone’s memory.

The question of a fourth out appeal has been raised again and the ability to appeal a batter-runner not making it to first base or missing first base as a fourth out appeal to nullify a run that has scored. We need to remember, the reason the fourth out appeal was added to our rules was to penalize a runner for missing a base or leaving a base too soon and who has scored. Not to penalize a team for a batter-runner just stopping on the way to 1B because the third out has been recorded. How many times have we seen the batter-runner stop when the third out was recorded because they do not have to run to 1B any more? The same is true when they do run to 1B but miss it when going to 2B or just over running the base. In these cases they can be appealed for the third out but not the fourth out. The rule was made to nullify a run scored by a runner but violated a rule like missing a base or leaving a base too soon.

Play: R1 on 3B and R2 on 2B with 1 out. B4 hits a fly ball to F8 who catches it for the 2nd out. R1 and R2 both tag up but R1 leaves early, R1 scores and R2 is thrown out for the third out. The defense wants to appeal R1 for leaving to soon.
Ruling: If appealed properly R1 is out and the run is nullified by our Fourth out appeal. Rule 5 section 5 C

Play: R1 on 3B and R2 on 2B with two outs. B4 hits a ground ball in which R1 scores before R2 is tagged out between 2B and 3B for the third out. B4 never runs all the way to 1B because the third out has been recorded. Now the defense wants to appeal the batter-runner not reaching 1B.
Ruling: This appeal will not be granted since the third out has already been recorded. To nullify a run the fourth out appeal has to be on a runner who has scored and has missed a base or left a base too soon.

Remember the defense always has the opportunity to appeal a force out or the Batter-runner not making it to 1B as the third out before making the third out somewhere else. Once the third out is made elsewhere a Fourth out appeal has to be made on a runner who has scored and THAT runner has violated a rule.

For additional information and plays involving this rule refer to the 2007 Plays and Clarifications, April Edition.
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Old Wed Jan 31, 2018, 11:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
...Does it matter?
Yes, because in one case the out on the BR is the third out, and in the other case it is the fourth out.

This "fourth out" rule is a unique affectation for ASA / USA.
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Last edited by Dakota; Wed Jan 31, 2018 at 02:46pm.
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Old Wed Jan 31, 2018, 11:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
USA has always required a 4th out appeal to only be allowed on a runner who has scored. Somewhere in the case plays or clarifications there is another ruling stating once a 3rd out has been recorded the batter/runner is no longer expected to complete their base running requirement.
Actually, it hasn't been "always".
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Old Thu Feb 01, 2018, 08:39am
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Thanks to Dakota for his comment, and please let me edit mine to read

"...no run will count if the 3rd out is on the batter not reaching 1B, or if the 3d out is a force"
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Old Tue Feb 06, 2018, 10:20pm
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Another scenario we are discussing:

Not sure about the answer.

With no outs and the bases loaded, B4 hits a hard one-hopper back to F1 who immediately throws to F2 for a force play out on R1 from third base. F2 then attempts to retire B4 at first base but the throw hits B4 in the back while B4 was running inside the foul line. (Could be 20 feet from home or 40 feet from home. Does it matter?)

So we already have 1 out on the force at home. BR then interfered with a thrown ball trying to prevent a DP. So B4 is now out and we have a dead ball. Do we call the next closest runner to home (R2) out and have an inning-ending triple play?
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Old Tue Feb 06, 2018, 11:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Another scenario we are discussing:

Not sure about the answer.

With no outs and the bases loaded, B4 hits a hard one-hopper back to F1 who immediately throws to F2 for a force play out on R1 from third base. F2 then attempts to retire B4 at first base but the throw hits B4 in the back while B4 was running inside the foul line. (Could be 20 feet from home or 40 feet from home. Does it matter?)
Absolutely
Quote:

So we already have 1 out on the force at home. BR then interfered with a thrown ball trying to prevent a DP. So B4 is now out and we have a dead ball. Do we call the next closest runner to home (R2) out and have an inning-ending triple play?
How can you get a 3rd out? The ball is dead when the INT is called, any active runners return to last base reached at the time of the INT.
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Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 01:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post

So we already have 1 out on the force at home. BR then interfered with a thrown ball trying to prevent a DP. So B4 is now out and we have a dead ball. Do we call the next closest runner to home (R2) out and have an inning-ending triple play?
I think you are mixing situations. The runner closest to home would be called out only if the runner who interfered (batter-runner going to first) had already been put out. In this case she (batter-runner) had not already been put out. So simply a dead ball, batter-runner out for interference. 2 Outs.

Another note, is that in an attempt to break up a double play, the trailing runner is also out (not runner closest to home). [USA rule set]

Also hard to understand in this scenario how batter-runner is trying to break up a double play.

Last edited by josephrt1; Wed Feb 07, 2018 at 02:32am.
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Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 09:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Another scenario we are discussing:

Not sure about the answer.

With no outs and the bases loaded, B4 hits a hard one-hopper back to F1 who immediately throws to F2 for a force play out on R1 from third base. F2 then attempts to retire B4 at first base but the throw hits B4 in the back while B4 was running inside the foul line. (Could be 20 feet from home or 40 feet from home. Does it matter?)
Running lane rule starts half way from HP to 1st, so unless playing with 80+ ft bases, 40 feet doesn't matter.

Edited ---- should say 20 feet does not matter. From HP that is.
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Last edited by CecilOne; Wed Feb 07, 2018 at 09:30am.
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Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 09:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josephrt1 View Post
I think you are mixing situations. The runner closest to home would be called out only if the runner who interfered (batter-runner going to first) had already been put out. In this case she (batter-runner) had not already been put out. So simply a dead ball, batter-runner out for interference. 2 Outs.

Another note, is that in an attempt to break up a double play, the trailing runner is also out (not runner closest to home). [USA rule set]

Also hard to understand in this scenario how batter-runner is trying to break up a double play.
Agree, plus:
1 - Retired runner or scored runner. In this case, the R1 could interfere with the throw to 1st.
2 - Trailing runner out if the interfering runner was not already out
3 - B4 being hit prevents the double play and a possible triple play elsewhere, but must be "ITUJ an attempt to prevent a double play"
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Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 09:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josephrt1 View Post
I think you are mixing situations. The runner closest to home would be called out only if the runner who interfered (batter-runner going to first) had already been put out. In this case she (batter-runner) had not already been put out. So simply a dead ball, batter-runner out for interference. 2 Outs.

Another note, is that in an attempt to break up a double play, the trailing runner is also out (not runner closest to home). [USA rule set]

Also hard to understand in this scenario how batter-runner is trying to break up a double play.
A batter-runner is not a runner.

Breaking up a DP: if the interference is by a runner not yet retired, the trailing runner is also out. If by a retired runner, the runner closest to home is also out (which could end up being a trailing runner).

Assume for our purposes that the batter-runner IS trying to break up a DP (because I told you so).
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Last edited by Tru_in_Blu; Wed Feb 07, 2018 at 09:40am. Reason: added "batter" to clarify runner from BR
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Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 09:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Running lane rule starts half way from HP to 1st, so unless playing with 80+ ft bases, 40 feet doesn't matter.
OK, let's actually do the math. Assume this is for JO play.

Base distance is 60 feet.

Running lane starts half way from HP to first, so 60 / 2 = 30 feet.

Scenario I posted: 20 feet from HP means runner hasn't reached the running lane yet (i.e. 10 feet short); 40 feet from HP means runner has gone 10 feet beyond where the running lane starts.

If the batter runner is running in fair territory the entire time and gets plunked with a throw from F2 standing at HP, does it matter if the BR has reached the 30 foot mark or not?
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Last edited by Tru_in_Blu; Wed Feb 07, 2018 at 09:43am. Reason: changed foul territory to fair territory; makes a difference
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