Time of Interference

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Well, if the bases were loaded, then the out at second base removes the force from R2. So her out for being the closest to home would be a timing play, not a force play.

Yes, but the BR still didn't safely reach first. It seems weird that the runner on second who wasn't involved in the play changes the result. Yet if the reasoning is that the interference out kept the runner going to first from getting there safely, that conclusion would follow.
(On the other hand, if they'd just played on the runner going to third that would be the result.)

[jmkupka]

The criteria is not whether BR reaches 1B, it's whether the 3rd out is due to a force (or BR not reaching 1B, which, I've learned here, is not a "force" )

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by youngump

Yes, but the BR still didn't safely reach first. It seems weird that the runner on second who wasn't involved in the play changes the result. Yet if the reasoning is that the interference out kept the runner going to first from getting there safely, that conclusion would follow.
(On the other hand, if they'd just played on the runner going to third that would be the result.)

The BR gets to 1st safely (award) if the out is R2 from 2nd base as closest to home.

[josephrt1]

Originally Posted by youngump

Does it change anything if we add a runner at 2nd? In that case the BR would be awarded 1st, but I still don't think this run is meant to score.

I'm not a college ump (do USA) but I think the NCAA rule book answers your question. (I'm looking at the 2015 NCAA book.)

In section 12.19, page 147, one sentence stands out. "If the batter-runner has not touched first base at the time of the interference, each base runner shall return to the base legally occupied at the time of the pitch."

In your example of the runner going from 1st to 2nd and after being put out, interferes with the throw to 1st, we have a dead ball. The runner closest to home (runner going from 2nd to 3rd) is now called out for the 3rd out which is not a force out. If the batter-runner had reached 1st before this interference, the run will count. If the batter-runner had NOT reached 1st before this interference then all runners return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch negating the run and putting the runner who crossed home plate back at 3rd base. I read this to mean that even if this was not the 3rd out, the run would still be taken off the board which i don't think anyone was considering (and actually sounds pretty odd).

I think this answers your question. I don't see a similar explanation in the USA book or the 2012 ASA case book, but it would sure help.

[jmkupka]

That comment addresses the batter-runner interfering with a D3K situation or bunt, most likely with a squeeze play on, which will send the runner from 3B back (even if she had crossed the plate before BR's INT). Doesn't pertain to a retired runner situation.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by josephrt1

In section 12.19, page 147, one sentence stands out. "If the batter-runner has not touched first base at the time of the interference, each base runner shall return to the base legally occupied at the time of the pitch."

If the batter-runner had NOT reached 1st before this interference then all runners return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch negating the run and putting the runner who crossed home plate back at 3rd base.

I read this to mean that even if this was not the 3rd out, the run would still be taken off the board which i don't think anyone was considering (and actually sounds pretty odd).

Ref bolded: The bases were loaded in the second example.

[josephrt1]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

That comment addresses the batter-runner interfering with a D3K situation or bunt, most likely with a squeeze play on, which will send the runner from 3B back (even if she had crossed the plate before BR's INT). Doesn't pertain to a retired runner situation.

Why do you say that this applies only to a D3K? Look at 12.19. It mentions a lot of different interference types but does not include the one you mention, a D3K. And if you look at 12.19.2.5 it covers the specific situation from the original post. But then someone added the situation of bases loaded instead of just 1st and 3rd at time of the batted ball. So it looks like the line in section 12.19 addresses this situation: "If the batter-runner has not touched first base at the time of the interference, each base runner shall return to the base legally occupied at the time of the pitch."

There is no mention of a D3K in this section.

[jmkupka]

Nope, didn't mention only D3K, also mentioned bunt attempt... the Effect is a general explanation of INT penalties, and a list of those who could conceivably commit INT. One of which is the BR.

The next section then goes on to itemize the penalties for each individual player in that list.

[josephrt1]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Nope, didn't mention only D3K, also mentioned bunt attempt... the Effect is a general explanation of INT penalties, and a list of those who could conceivably commit INT. One of which is the BR.

The next section then goes on to itemize the penalties for each individual player in that list.

Maybe we are starting to go around in circles, but why do you say the statement in 12.19 "If the batter-runner has not touched first base at the time of the interference, each base runner shall return to the base legally occupied at the time of the pitch." does not apply to a retired runner. It is part of a very broad section dealing with interference and then it is followed up by very specific cases of interference.

The case in the original post is covered by 12.19.2.5, and AR 12.19.2.5 specifically says the run would be taken away for the situation in the original post).

But in the added scenario by Youngump i don't find the exact situation in the rule book. But the general statement about the run not counting if the batter-runner had not reached first base seems to apply. Even if the runner closest to home is called out (runner going from 2nd to 3rd) and this is not a force, it seems the decision to count or not count the run is determined by the position of the batter-runner as stated in 12.19.

If batter-runner has reached first at the time of the interference, count the run. if the batter runner has not reached first, remove the run tally.

What am I missing?