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Fri Feb 11, 2005, 04:12pm
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Play: R1, R2, no out. Batter singles sharply through infield. 3rd base coach sending hard running R2 around 3rd. Past 3rd, runner stumbles, falls, and as he is getting up, coach assists him to his feet and runner continues.
Obviously: That is interference and that runner (R2) will be out. Question: Do you call "That's Inteference! TIME!" Stop action, call the out, and put the rest of the runners in their proper place. (Obviously, BR on 1st and R1 on 2nd). or: Would you let all action finish? For example that OF throw was cut off and BR is tagged going into 2nd, giving you 2 outs on the play? 
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Fri Feb 11, 2005, 05:41pm
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If you're working FEDlandia
National Federation of High School Rule Book
Page 37 After Infraction, Ball Not Dead Until Umpire Calls "Time" #10 A coach physically assists a runner. Rule 5-1-2f Page 39 . . . It is a delayed Dead Ball when: a. a coach physically assist a runner. Rule 3-2-2 Page 29 . . . No coach shall physically assist a runner. Penalty: The ball is dead at the end of playing action. Fed seems to be pretty clear on this one. Tee [Edited by Tim C on Feb 11th, 2005 at 05:46 PM]
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Fri Feb 11, 2005, 06:14pm
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Quote:
Now you wanted to kill the ball when the coach interfered, that is not correct. You are not giving the defense the right to make a play on another runner. How about R3 with 1 out. B1 hits a fly ball to F8. R3 dosen't go back to the base to retouch. The third base coach grabs R3 and pushes him back to third base. Now if the ball is still in flight, what do you to with the BR when you kill the ball?
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Fri Feb 11, 2005, 07:25pm
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The rule states: OBR 7.09(i) - It is interference by a batter or a runner when, in the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base. This is interference. Under the definition of interference (section 2), OBR says, On any interference the ball is dead. Exceptions are "batter's interference" with a runner stealing and "catcher's interference." But those exceptions are specifically addressed in the rule. So those rules are accurate. Such is not the case with 7.09(i). There is no mention of an exception with regards to a coach assisting a runner. So, by a strict reading of the rule book, one would logically come to the conclusion that this would cause a dead ball. Rick Roder says no. He says, "Interference by a coach for physically assisting a runner (7.09i) is grouped in a list of interferences that require a dead ball. However, by making the ball dead, the umpire risks disallowing other outs the defense might gain independent of the actions of offensive team personnel." The PBUC and MLB interpretation: The ball remains live. David Emerling Memphis, TN [Edited by David Emerling on Feb 11th, 2005 at 07:31 PM]
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Fri Feb 11, 2005, 08:03pm
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Fair enough.
As the coach grabs the runner at third, F8 tries to gun him at third and instead throws it into the stands. Dead ball, but do you award bases? If it's a dead ball on the interference, like the book says, you don't. But if it's a delayed dead ball you do. Interesting. (not so third world, I've seen it twice.(Second world?))
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Fri Feb 11, 2005, 08:25pm
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I presume you constructed your example to highlight the inappropriateness of continued action because the defense made a play on a runner who was already out and, by continuing the play, the offense benefited. Correct? I don't know if this would a be a reasonable interpretation but it would seem that if the defense was making a play that stemmed directly and immediately (as in your example) from an interference situation, that it might be appropriate to kill the ball because of the extreme peculiarity of the situation. Once it becomes obvious that the defense can obtain no additional outs (as in your example), I could see killing the play. But only after that is obvious. And in your example, it would be obvious. How could the defense possible register any "additional outs" when they are making a play on a runner who is already out? Although I cannot be certain, I think the point of the interpretation is to allow any additional outs that might occur. A better and more realistic example might be as follows: PLAY: R2. Base hit into center field. F8 bobbles the ball as the third base coach sends R2 home and the BR attempts to advance to 2nd. R2 slips rounding 3rd and the coach helps him to his feet. R2, still scores easily. But F8 recovers the ball and makes a direct throw to 2nd, retiring the BR. That is a perfectly reasonable play that would justify the umpire allowing the ball to remain live. R2 is out for the coach's interference and the BR is also out on live action. If the BR ends up safe at 2nd, sure, an argument can be made that the offense still benefited by continued action. But at least the defense got the opportunity to register an out. David Emerling Memphis, TN [Edited by David Emerling on Feb 11th, 2005 at 08:30 PM]
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Sat Feb 12, 2005, 12:55am
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The PBUC and MLB interpretation: The ball remains live. David Emerling Memphis, TN [Edited by David Emerling on Feb 11th, 2005 at 07:31 PM] [/B][/QUOTE] I believe that RR says what you said. That we allow the defense to get some more outs. PLEASE let us stay with my example.. the obvious extra out is as I posted, the throw is cutoff and they get BR into 2nd. I do want to question if RR opinion actually is the MLB interpretation. But consider the above, after the Interference by the coach, there is NO WAY that runners can advance.. so let that cutoff throw to 2nd go sailing into CF.. now the BR scampers home... and after we call TIME... aren't we sending him BACK to somewhere? Again, after an interference, we don't allow advancment, right? I think we should stop the circus as soon as possible. Perhaps let the out happen at 2nd but if the ball is overthrown... then KILL IT? Only asking...
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Sat Feb 12, 2005, 01:15am
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Quote:
I do want to question if RR opinion actually is the MLB interpretation. But consider the above, after the Interference by the coach, there is NO WAY that runners can advance.. so let that cutoff throw to 2nd go sailing into CF.. now the BR scampers home... and after we call TIME... aren't we sending him BACK to somewhere? Again, after an interference, we don't allow advancment, right? I think we should stop the circus as soon as possible. Perhaps let the out happen at 2nd but if the ball is overthrown... then KILL IT? Only asking... [/B][/QUOTE] Roder doesn't give any specific examples like yours, unfortunately. However, Jim Evans (in JEA) gives some examples and amplifies what Roder was trying to say. The ball *is* instantly killed if a play is being made on the runner with whom the coach interfered. All runners return to the base they last touched at the time of the coach's interference. If there is no immediate play being played on the interfered runner, play is allowed to continue. Here is a JEA example play: Runner on 2nd...the batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop. The B-R advances to 1st and overruns the base as the ball deflects off the 1st baseman. The B-R feints to 2nd and then trips to the ground. His coach helps him up as the other runner attempts to score. The 1st baseman retrieves the ball and fires home in time for the putout. Should the ball be killed at the time of the assist by the coach or should the out stand? RULING: Since the play was not being made on the assisted runner, the ball remains alive and in play. This is a double play. (Though not covered specifically in the Official Rules, this ruling is based on common sense and fair play. If the ball were instantly killed at the time of a coach's assist, the coach could always control the status of the ball by grabbing a nearby player.) Evans explains the rationale: When a play is being made on the assisted runner, the umpire should call "Time" and enforce the penalty. The runner is out and all runners return to the bases occupied at the time of the interference (assistance). If no play is being made on the assisted runner, the umpire shall signal that the runner is out and allow the ball to remain alive. This enforcement principle permits the defensive team to make plays on other runners if possible. It is also consistent with other enforcement principles in the Official Baseball Rules in which you have a "delayed dead ball": 7.06(b) - Obstruction with no play being made on the obstructed runner; and 7.08(h) - Runner declared out for passing a preceding runner. It's still not clear if the umpire, once having made the decision to allow play to continue, can subsequently kill the play as soon as it becomes evident that the play is to the offense's advantage, like when a poor throw is made by a fielder. But there would be support for such a ruling. Take Type B obstruction. The umpire allows play to continue UNTIL the obstructed runner is thrown out prior to reaching a protected base. In other words, the umpire allows play to continue to allow the offense to make greater gains, if possible. Once that does not happen, play is killed. Analogous to that would be what we're discussing with regards to coach interference with a runner. If no immediate play is being made on the runner - play continues so that the defense may gain an advantage. As soon as the defense gains no advantage, play is killed. That's just a guess on my part, however. But it seems reasonable. Doesn't it? David Emerling Memphis, TN
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Sat Feb 12, 2005, 09:40am
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From 2005 BRD: OBR: "Following the interference the assisted runner is out, but the ball remains alive: Other runners may make bases or outs." NCAA is the same.
In FED "any other outs made on the play stand, and runners remain TOI" (unless the play was HR with less than 2 outs, runners would advance on that, or if batter's fair fly ball is dropped, he would be awarded 1B.)
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Sun Feb 13, 2005, 11:16pm
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Whoa... I can't buy this part about making bases.
BACK TO the original play. Accepting the JEA interp of leaving the ball live for purposes of the DEFENSE making another play. So... R2, after the coach interference has been called out. Throw from outfield was cuttoff, and the attempt to get BR sliding into 2nd is a wild throw into CF. How do we allow the OFFENSE to continue after an OFFENSIVE INTERFERENCE? Especially when the Rule book penalty says dead ball. I accept allowing the attempt of the OUT at 2nd.. but ONCE this ball is overthrown.. I want to call TIME and call R2 out and send BR back to 1st. Quote:
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Mon Feb 14, 2005, 08:46am
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Although it's listed under the "interference" part of the rule, the offense didn't interfere wiht the defense. That's why the rest of the play is allowed to stand. It's very similar to a runner passing another. The runner who violated the rule is out, but it has no effect on the other runners -- they may make bases or be put out.
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Mon Feb 14, 2005, 04:20pm
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Bob hit on the key difference. You don't penalize other runners in this kind of interference. The runner who was picked up is out, but no one else did anything wrong, or affected the defense adversely (just as in a runner passing another). At least until a play is made on the runner in question. (For example, if R1 rounding third, assisted by coach at third, continued home and drew a throw). The other runners are liable to be put out, and also allowed to continue running bases.
A runner out for interfering with a fielder is a different sitch, as defense was specifically hampered by the interference. So you kill it in that case.
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