Foul tip

[jmkupka]

Joining a new NCAA crew, attending mandatory rules clinic, discussing foul tips...

Please verify this for me.

Sharp and direct from bat to F2's mitt. Skips off tip of F2's mitt, bounces off F2's mask, up in the air, juggled for 1/2 hour, finally corralled in and secured by F2. Ball never touches another person or thing except F2.

Still foul tip, live ball?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Joining a new NCAA crew, attending mandatory rules clinic, discussing foul tips...

Please verify this for me.

Sharp and direct from bat to F2's mitt. Skips off tip of F2's mitt, bounces off F2's mask, up in the air, juggled for 1/2 hour, finally corralled in and secured by F2. Ball never touches another person or thing except F2.

Still foul tip, live ball?

As long as "Sharp and direct from bat to F2's mitt" to start (disclaim NCAA ).

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Joining a new NCAA crew, attending mandatory rules clinic, discussing foul tips...

Please verify this for me.

Sharp and direct from bat to F2's mitt. Skips off tip of F2's mitt, bounces off F2's mask, up in the air, juggled for 1/2 hour, finally corralled in and secured by F2. Ball never touches another person or thing except F2.

Still foul tip, live ball?

Why not? By the way, this scenario is directly from AR 11.6^1.

[jmkupka]

Actually (and unfortunately for me), the AR doesn't mention the ball subsequently hitting anything; only the mitt, then going straight up in the air. That's what is causing the problem.

The interp I've always known (from this forum), is that it can rattle around all of F2's equipment, as long as it touched the mitt first.

The boss didn't want to hear it, and I'm in no position yet to debate him on it.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Actually (and unfortunately for me), the AR doesn't mention the ball subsequently hitting anything; only the mitt, then going straight up in the air. That's what is causing the problem.

The interp I've always known (from this forum), is that it can rattle around all of F2's equipment, as long as it touched the mitt first.

The boss didn't want to hear it, and I'm in no position yet to debate him on it.

By definition, the ball is still in flight when it touches a defensive player and can be legally caught. So whether or not it hits the catcher elsewhere after the ball initially contacts her glove/mitt/hand, it still meets the definition of a foul tip.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Actually (and unfortunately for me), the AR doesn't mention the ball subsequently hitting anything; only the mitt, then going straight up in the air. That's what is causing the problem.

The interp I've always known (from this forum), is that it can rattle around all of F2's equipment, as long as it touched the mitt first.

The boss didn't want to hear it, and I'm in no position yet to debate him on it.

A.R.11.6^1: On a potential foul tip with two strikes on the batter...(1) Ball goes directly off the bat, nicks off the catcher's glove, off her mask, rebounds into the air, and the catcher dives to catch it in her glove; (2) Ball goes directly off the bat, nicks off the catcher's glove, hits her in the chest, rebounds up into the air where she can run under it and she catches it in her glove; (3) Ball goes directly off the bat, hits the catcher in the chest, rebounds upward where she is able catch it in her glove without taking a step; 4) Ball goes directly off the bat, nicks the catcher’s glove which pops it up off the umpire’s mask then it is eventually caught by the catcher.
RULING: The ruling on the first and second would be foul tip; strike three. The ruling on three and four would be foul ball because in 3) the first contact was not with the catcher’s hand or glove and in 4) the catcher was assisted by the umpire in completing the catch.

[jmkupka]

Bob, I'd love to know where that is in the 2016/2017 book... this is what I'm getting for that citation:

A.R.11.6.1: A ball travels directly from the bat, in a straight line, to the glove or bare hand and is deflected straight up into the air. RULING: If the catcher then legally catches the ball, it is a foul tip. If it is not caught unassisted by the catcher or is touched.

Please let me know, so I have something to show...

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Bob, I'd love to know where that is in the 2016/2017 book... this is what I'm getting for that citation:

A.R.11.6.1: A ball travels directly from the bat, in a straight line, to the glove or bare hand and is deflected straight up into the air. RULING: If the catcher then legally catches the ball, it is a foul tip. If it is not caught unassisted by the catcher or is touched.

Please let me know, so I have something to show...

That's not in the rule book. Rather, it's in the "Ask Dee" document that is the rules interpretation supplement to the rule book. If you are an NCAA umpire and have access to the Central Hub on Arbiter, you'll find the "Ask Dee" document there.

[IRISHMAFIA]

This sounds like someone is trying to overthink the rules which only makes a mess of something relatively simple.

[jmkupka]

not me, Mike... mostly likely, ball/mitt/mask, 3 ft up in the air, gathered in. Easy call, foul tip.

My man is saying nope, that's a foul ball.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

not me, Mike... mostly likely, ball/mitt/mask, 3 ft up in the air, gathered in. Easy call, foul tip.

My man is saying nope, that's a foul ball.

Because he's confusing it with non-mitt part first.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

not me, Mike... mostly likely, ball/mitt/mask, 3 ft up in the air, gathered in. Easy call, foul tip.

My man is saying nope, that's a foul ball.

Hard to understand what the hang-up is. It meets the definition of a foul-tip, legally caught and has not touched another player, object, or the umpire.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

not me, Mike... mostly likely, ball/mitt/mask, 3 ft up in the air, gathered in. Easy call, foul tip.

My man is saying nope, that's a foul ball.

Very simple: your man is wrong. This is a foul tip in every softball (and baseball, for that matter) organization that I know of. Your man is essentially requiring that the batted ball only touch the glove/mitt/hand and nothing else.

If your man is an NCAA umpire who has access to the NCAA Central Hub in Arbiter, tell him to look up the "Ask Dee" rule interpretations document. What Bob posted above is in there in black and white.

[jmkupka]

Thanks guys, just found it myself. Will bring it to his attention next time around.

[SWFLguy]

Funny that I stopped in to check this place. Back when I was UIC in central NY, I was involved in a protest in men's fast pitch on this very topic. Umpire making the call called it a foul ball and a runner was put out. The offended team's manager was a big wig with the telephone company and he set up a 3 way conference call with Tommy Mason, then head of ASA umpires. That was interesting unto itself. The on field decision was corrected.