The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2017, 10:07am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 648
Foul tip

Joining a new NCAA crew, attending mandatory rules clinic, discussing foul tips...

Please verify this for me.

Sharp and direct from bat to F2's mitt. Skips off tip of F2's mitt, bounces off F2's mask, up in the air, juggled for 1/2 hour, finally corralled in and secured by F2. Ball never touches another person or thing except F2.

Still foul tip, live ball?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2017, 10:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
Joining a new NCAA crew, attending mandatory rules clinic, discussing foul tips...

Please verify this for me.

Sharp and direct from bat to F2's mitt. Skips off tip of F2's mitt, bounces off F2's mask, up in the air, juggled for 1/2 hour, finally corralled in and secured by F2. Ball never touches another person or thing except F2.

Still foul tip, live ball?
As long as "Sharp and direct from bat to F2's mitt" to start (disclaim NCAA ).
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2017, 10:48am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
Joining a new NCAA crew, attending mandatory rules clinic, discussing foul tips...

Please verify this for me.

Sharp and direct from bat to F2's mitt. Skips off tip of F2's mitt, bounces off F2's mask, up in the air, juggled for 1/2 hour, finally corralled in and secured by F2. Ball never touches another person or thing except F2.

Still foul tip, live ball?
Why not? By the way, this scenario is directly from AR 11.6^1.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2017, 10:59am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 648
Actually (and unfortunately for me), the AR doesn't mention the ball subsequently hitting anything; only the mitt, then going straight up in the air. That's what is causing the problem.

The interp I've always known (from this forum), is that it can rattle around all of F2's equipment, as long as it touched the mitt first.

The boss didn't want to hear it, and I'm in no position yet to debate him on it.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2017, 11:02am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
Actually (and unfortunately for me), the AR doesn't mention the ball subsequently hitting anything; only the mitt, then going straight up in the air. That's what is causing the problem.

The interp I've always known (from this forum), is that it can rattle around all of F2's equipment, as long as it touched the mitt first.

The boss didn't want to hear it, and I'm in no position yet to debate him on it.
By definition, the ball is still in flight when it touches a defensive player and can be legally caught. So whether or not it hits the catcher elsewhere after the ball initially contacts her glove/mitt/hand, it still meets the definition of a foul tip.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker

Last edited by Manny A; Wed Oct 25, 2017 at 11:05am.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2017, 11:53am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
Actually (and unfortunately for me), the AR doesn't mention the ball subsequently hitting anything; only the mitt, then going straight up in the air. That's what is causing the problem.

The interp I've always known (from this forum), is that it can rattle around all of F2's equipment, as long as it touched the mitt first.

The boss didn't want to hear it, and I'm in no position yet to debate him on it.
A.R.11.6^1: On a potential foul tip with two strikes on the batter...(1) Ball goes directly off the bat, nicks off the catcher's glove, off her mask, rebounds into the air, and the catcher dives to catch it in her glove; (2) Ball goes directly off the bat, nicks off the catcher's glove, hits her in the chest, rebounds up into the air where she can run under it and she catches it in her glove; (3) Ball goes directly off the bat, hits the catcher in the chest, rebounds upward where she is able catch it in her glove without taking a step; 4) Ball goes directly off the bat, nicks the catcher’s glove which pops it up off the umpire’s mask then it is eventually caught by the catcher.
RULING: The ruling on the first and second would be foul tip; strike three. The ruling on three and four would be foul ball because in 3) the first contact was not with the catcher’s hand or glove and in 4) the catcher was assisted by the umpire in completing the catch.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2017, 11:59am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 648
Bob, I'd love to know where that is in the 2016/2017 book... this is what I'm getting for that citation:

A.R.11.6.1: A ball travels directly from the bat, in a straight line, to the glove or bare hand and is deflected straight up into the air. RULING: If the catcher then legally catches the ball, it is a foul tip. If it is not caught unassisted by the catcher or is touched.

Please let me know, so I have something to show...

Last edited by jmkupka; Wed Oct 25, 2017 at 12:01pm.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2017, 02:32pm
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
Bob, I'd love to know where that is in the 2016/2017 book... this is what I'm getting for that citation:

A.R.11.6.1: A ball travels directly from the bat, in a straight line, to the glove or bare hand and is deflected straight up into the air. RULING: If the catcher then legally catches the ball, it is a foul tip. If it is not caught unassisted by the catcher or is touched.

Please let me know, so I have something to show...
That's not in the rule book. Rather, it's in the "Ask Dee" document that is the rules interpretation supplement to the rule book. If you are an NCAA umpire and have access to the Central Hub on Arbiter, you'll find the "Ask Dee" document there.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker

Last edited by Manny A; Wed Oct 25, 2017 at 02:36pm.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 26, 2017, 08:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
This sounds like someone is trying to overthink the rules which only makes a mess of something relatively simple.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 26, 2017, 09:02am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 648
not me, Mike... mostly likely, ball/mitt/mask, 3 ft up in the air, gathered in. Easy call, foul tip.

My man is saying nope, that's a foul ball.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 26, 2017, 09:05am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
not me, Mike... mostly likely, ball/mitt/mask, 3 ft up in the air, gathered in. Easy call, foul tip.

My man is saying nope, that's a foul ball.
Because he's confusing it with non-mitt part first.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 26, 2017, 10:33am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
not me, Mike... mostly likely, ball/mitt/mask, 3 ft up in the air, gathered in. Easy call, foul tip.

My man is saying nope, that's a foul ball.
Hard to understand what the hang-up is. It meets the definition of a foul-tip, legally caught and has not touched another player, object, or the umpire.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 26, 2017, 10:34am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
not me, Mike... mostly likely, ball/mitt/mask, 3 ft up in the air, gathered in. Easy call, foul tip.

My man is saying nope, that's a foul ball.
Very simple: your man is wrong. This is a foul tip in every softball (and baseball, for that matter) organization that I know of. Your man is essentially requiring that the batted ball only touch the glove/mitt/hand and nothing else.

If your man is an NCAA umpire who has access to the NCAA Central Hub in Arbiter, tell him to look up the "Ask Dee" rule interpretations document. What Bob posted above is in there in black and white.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 26, 2017, 10:43am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 648
Thanks guys, just found it myself. Will bring it to his attention next time around.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 29, 2017, 08:06pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Fort Myers FL
Posts: 600
Funny that I stopped in to check this place. Back when I was UIC in central NY, I was involved in a protest in men's fast pitch on this very topic. Umpire making the call called it a foul ball and a runner was put out. The offended team's manager was a big wig with the telephone company and he set up a 3 way conference call with Tommy Mason, then head of ASA umpires. That was interesting unto itself. The on field decision was corrected.
__________________
Keep everything in front of you
and have fun out there !!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Foul In the Post: One Continuous Action or Technical Foul? APG Basketball 10 Sat Feb 02, 2013 08:24pm
Shots on Intentional foul/Technical foul refd Basketball 16 Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:02am
Common Shooting Foul Followed by a Technical Foul tophat67 Basketball 9 Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:57am
Can you just call a team foul if you are not sure who the foul is on? Diebler biggravy Basketball 18 Sun Dec 13, 2009 07:20pm
Anger over referee's foul calls triggers a bigger foul after game BktBallRef Basketball 10 Mon Mar 06, 2006 02:36am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:03am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1