The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 16, 2017, 07:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,246
BOO today

Looking for inputs and discussion.

We had a BOO situation today, USA invitational tournament. Tie breaker to begin the top of an inning with runner placed on 2nd base.

First batter popped out. No advance by runner.

Next batter turned out to be an improper batter. During her AB, runner advanced to third base on and wild pitch. Runner then scored on a wild pitch. Batter then received a base on balls.

At this point, the defensive coach asked for time to protest the BOO.

I was on the bases and after a short discussion, I heard the PU declared the runner on first base out. I'm standing out there wondering what's going on. My initial thought was that we had an unreported sub. Once he invited me in to the discussion, I learned that the defense had protested the BOO. No pitch had yet been thrown to the next batter.

What should have happened? I'll respond after some replies. There's one bit in the rule that I'm wondering about.

Thanx.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 16, 2017, 07:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Looking for inputs and discussion.

We had a BOO situation today, USA invitational tournament. Tie breaker to begin the top of an inning with runner placed on 2nd base.

First batter popped out. No advance by runner.

Next batter turned out to be an improper batter. During her AB, runner advanced to third base on and wild pitch. Runner then scored on a wild pitch. Batter then received a base on balls.

At this point, the defensive coach asked for time to protest the BOO.

I was on the bases and after a short discussion, I heard the PU declared the runner on first base out. I'm standing out there wondering what's going on. My initial thought was that we had an unreported sub. Once he invited me in to the discussion, I learned that the defense had protested the BOO. No pitch had yet been thrown to the next batter.

What should have happened? I'll respond after some replies. There's one bit in the rule that I'm wondering about.

Thanx.
Proper batter out. Improper batter at bat negated. R1 returns to 2nd.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.

Last edited by CecilOne; Sun Jul 16, 2017 at 07:40pm.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 16, 2017, 07:53pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,340
The advance of the runner on wild pitches is legal as it was not as a result of the incorrect batter putting the ball into play or becoming a batter/runner.

Last edited by RKBUmp; Sun Jul 16, 2017 at 08:29pm.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 16, 2017, 11:25pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Proper batter out. Improper batter at bat negated. R1 returns to 2nd.
Nope. The runners would return only if they scored on the actual play when the batter advanced. in this case the runner had already scored before the batter walked. This is true in a BOO or in an unreported sub situation.

BOO 7.2.D
D. If batting out of order is discovered:
1. While the incorrect batter is at bat:
A The correct batter must take the batter’s position and assume the balls and strikes count.
B Any runner advanced and runs scored while the incorrect batter was at bat shall be legal.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 17, 2017, 08:01am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by josephrt1 View Post
Nope. The runners would return only if they scored on the actual play when the batter advanced. in this case the runner had already scored before the batter walked. This is true in a BOO or in an unreported sub situation.

BOO 7.2.D
D. If batting out of order is discovered:
1. While the incorrect batter is at bat:
A The correct batter must take the batter’s position and assume the balls and strikes count.
B Any runner advanced and runs scored while the incorrect batter was at bat shall be legal.
I was applying 7.2.d.2.3 (after the turn at bat).
That maybe a good way to interpret that rule, because "result" is ambiguous relative to the wild pitches.

Need to check RS & interpretations.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 17, 2017, 08:34am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,560
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Proper batter out. Improper batter at bat negated. R1 returns to 2nd.
Nope. There were no runners on base at the time the improper batter received a walk.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 17, 2017, 09:48am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
I was applying 7.2.d.2.3 (after the turn at bat).
That maybe a good way to interpret that rule, because "result" is ambiguous relative to the wild pitches.

Need to check RS & interpretations.
Lets alter the play a little. Instead of the runner advancing and scoring on wild pitches lets say they got picked off. Would you erase the out and put them back on base after the batting out of order appeal?
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 17, 2017, 09:51am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
Lets alter the play a little. Instead of the runner advancing and scoring on wild pitches lets say they got picked off. Would you erase the out and put them back on base after the batting out of order appeal?
No, outs stand. Different ruling than advancing.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 17, 2017, 10:26am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,340
And, any advance of runners not attributed to the incorrect batter becoming a batter/runner also stand.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:09am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 2,672
The BOO situation in the OP is pretty straightforward, as far as some BOO occurrences go.

The correct answer as to what should have happened has been posted, I'm curious as to what piece you were wondering about?
__________________
It's what you learn after you think you know it all that's important!
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 17, 2017, 11:48am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 648
Perhaps, the thinking is that this particular super aggressive batter is intimidating the pitcher to throw wildly.

But it's not a factor to be considered.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 17, 2017, 02:43pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,246
OK, some of you are touching on the aspect of the situation that concerned me.

First off, here's what we did:
The incorrect batter's time at bat was negated.
The player who should have batted (just before the incorrect batter batted) was called out.
The runner who scored on the wild pitch was returned to the base.
The (former) incorrect batter came to bat again (and was retired).

I found this in the March 2010 Plays & Clarifications. I think some modifications were made to the BOO effects since then.

Section D[2] Addresses batting out of order after the incorrect batter has completed their turn at bat and before a pitch (legal or illegal) to the next batter; or before the pitcher and all infielders have vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory.

If the incorrect batter completes their turn at bat and then is discovered by the defense before a pitch to the next batter; or before all infielders have vacated their normal fielding positions, the player who should have batted is ruled out and the out would be recorded in the proper batter’s position in the line-up. Any advancement by a runner(s) or any run(s) that scored because of the incorrect batter becoming a batter-runner would be nullified. Runners would return to their base(s). Any outs made because of the improper batting stand. The next batter to bat would be the player whose name follows that of the batter who was declared out for not batting in proper order with one exception. The exception would be if the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is the next scheduled batter. Simply skip them in the batting order as they have already been credited with an out, and the next person in the line-up would be the next batter.


So where I got hung up was on 3 of the effect:
3) Any advancement or score of a runner as a result of the incorrect batter is negated. Runners not called out must return to the last base occupied at the time of the pitch. Any runner who is called out prior to the discovery of the infraction remains out.

The runner from third base scored on Ball 3. I remember that because I ended up going from "C" back to "A" and then the batter walked on the next pitch.

I guess we should have ruled that the runner should have scored because it was not as a direct "result" of anything that the incorrect batter did.

There's also this reference to "at the time of the pitch". I think this refers to the incorrect batter putting the ball into play.

A couple of more scenarios that will serve to further confuse myself.

Had the runner from third advanced and scored on a wild pitch ball four, would that count as a "result" of the incorrect batter? And if we're returning the runner, to third or back to second?

Had there been 2 outs and the batter popped out to F1 who then dropped the ball for an error with the incorrect batter reaching first base and the runner scoring, is that considered "a result" of the incorrect batter?

If there was no WP but the BR then ran to second and in the subsequent action, the runner from third scored, would she have to be returned or not?

I think my/our mistake was thinking that what happened "during" the incorrect batter's time at bat would all be negated (except if the runner was out trying to advance on a steal/WP/PB).

I'm trying to recall how many BOOs I've had during my time umpiring. I think I can count them on 1 hand. Looks like I/we kicked this one.

And the home team won the game when their runner who had been placed on second base scored on 2 wild pitches.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball

Last edited by Tru_in_Blu; Mon Jul 17, 2017 at 02:48pm.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 17, 2017, 04:39pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
I found this in the March 2010 Plays & Clarifications. I think some modifications were made to the BOO effects since then.
There was a rule change maybe in 2012 or so which changes the ruling on this play. In the old days you could have gotten 2 outs; one for the person who did not bat and one for the person who did bat. this has been changed.

In either case, a runner who advanced before the ball was put in play or before a walk would still get credit for their advance.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 17, 2017, 05:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
OK, some of you are touching on the aspect of the situation that concerned me.

First off, here's what we did:
The incorrect batter's time at bat was negated.
The player who should have batted (just before the incorrect batter batted) was called out.
The runner who scored on the wild pitch was returned to the base.
The (former) incorrect batter came to bat again (and was retired).

I found this in the March 2010 Plays & Clarifications. I think some modifications were made to the BOO effects since then.

Section D[2] Addresses batting out of order after the incorrect batter has completed their turn at bat and before a pitch (legal or illegal) to the next batter; or before the pitcher and all infielders have vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory.

If the incorrect batter completes their turn at bat and then is discovered by the defense before a pitch to the next batter; or before all infielders have vacated their normal fielding positions, the player who should have batted is ruled out and the out would be recorded in the proper batter’s position in the line-up. Any advancement by a runner(s) or any run(s) that scored because of the incorrect batter becoming a batter-runner would be nullified. Runners would return to their base(s). Any outs made because of the improper batting stand. The next batter to bat would be the player whose name follows that of the batter who was declared out for not batting in proper order with one exception. The exception would be if the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is the next scheduled batter. Simply skip them in the batting order as they have already been credited with an out, and the next person in the line-up would be the next batter.


So where I got hung up was on 3 of the effect:
3) Any advancement or score of a runner as a result of the incorrect batter is negated. Runners not called out must return to the last base occupied at the time of the pitch. Any runner who is called out prior to the discovery of the infraction remains out.

The runner from third base scored on Ball 3. I remember that because I ended up going from "C" back to "A" and then the batter walked on the next pitch.

I guess we should have ruled that the runner should have scored because it was not as a direct "result" of anything that the incorrect batter did.

There's also this reference to "at the time of the pitch". I think this refers to the incorrect batter putting the ball into play.

A couple of more scenarios that will serve to further confuse myself.

Had the runner from third advanced and scored on a wild pitch ball four, would that count as a "result" of the incorrect batter? And if we're returning the runner, to third or back to second?

Had there been 2 outs and the batter popped out to F1 who then dropped the ball for an error with the incorrect batter reaching first base and the runner scoring, is that considered "a result" of the incorrect batter?

If there was no WP but the BR then ran to second and in the subsequent action, the runner from third scored, would she have to be returned or not?

I think my/our mistake was thinking that what happened "during" the incorrect batter's time at bat would all be negated (except if the runner was out trying to advance on a steal/WP/PB).

I'm trying to recall how many BOOs I've had during my time umpiring. I think I can count them on 1 hand. Looks like I/we kicked this one.

And the home team won the game when their runner who had been placed on second base scored on 2 wild pitches.
For a "proper" BOO appeal (i.e. after the at bat ends but before the next pitch), the dividing line between runners' advances that stand and those that are negated is when the batter becomes a BR. Advances at the time of the pitch when the batter becomes a BR (or after) are negated. Advances due to action before that stand (e.g. stolen base, passed ball, wild pitch, illegal pitch).
__________________
Tom

Last edited by Dakota; Mon Jul 17, 2017 at 05:10pm.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 17, 2017, 05:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,246
Quote:
Originally Posted by josephrt1 View Post
There was a rule change maybe in 2012 or so which changes the ruling on this play. In the old days you could have gotten 2 outs; one for the person who did not bat and one for the person who did bat. this has been changed.

In either case, a runner who advanced before the ball was put in play or before a walk would still get credit for their advance.
That sounds right. One of the plays they had back in that March article was this one:

Situation 2:

With no outs, R1 on 1B and B2 scheduled to bat, B4 comes to bat instead and grounds into a double play. The defense appeals B4 batting out of order before a pitch to the next batter.

Ruling:

The double play stands and B2 is out for missing their turn at bat, resulting in the third out. B3 will lead off the next inning. (7-2D[2b])
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Today We Will Not . . . Freddy Basketball 27 Tue Jan 24, 2012 06:11pm
Today brandan89 Basketball 20 Tue Nov 30, 2004 03:39pm
Saw this one today YoungRighty Baseball 3 Sat Aug 07, 2004 07:49pm
Okay one for today. buddha69 Softball 6 Fri Jul 23, 2004 09:39pm
Well I had a first today!! Damian Basketball 7 Sat Apr 17, 2004 12:36pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:52pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1