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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 10, 2017, 07:19am
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Out without appeal

Just wanted to be sure on this...

Over the fence homer, BR trots home and misses HP. For whatever reason (maybe concealed by surrounding teammates, maybe defensive ignorance), there is no appeal by defense, and apparently not going to be one.

Just before entering DBT, OC pushes BR back to the plate (just in case).

OUT!

Correct?
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Old Mon Jul 10, 2017, 07:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
Just wanted to be sure on this...

Over the fence homer, BR trots home and misses HP. For whatever reason (maybe concealed by surrounding teammates, maybe defensive ignorance), there is no appeal by defense, and apparently not going to be one.

Just before entering DBT, OC pushes BR back to the plate (just in case).

OUT!

Correct?
Speaking USA, yes. 8.7.E

If the coach didn't do that, based on your comments (lack of appeal), the runner would not have been ruled out.
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Old Mon Jul 10, 2017, 07:54am
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The following play is the reason I bring it up.

https://youtu.be/g_V63kyO37I

A couple problems here with the way it was handled.

If you watch the celebration, the OC does physically direct her back to the plate (0:27). There's no other reason for her to reverse her direction.

That should have been the out (based on your response, Mike).

The tag that F2 put on the BR was with a new game ball the PU gave her (not a valid DB appeal and should have been ignored), HOWEVER,

after F2 makes the tag (and PU properly disallows the appeal), the next logical thing would've been "but blue, she missed the plate!", which WOULD be a proper DB appeal.

Except, in the 1.2 seconds it would take to say that, BR may have made it back to the plate.

Last edited by jmkupka; Mon Jul 10, 2017 at 08:40am.
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Old Mon Jul 10, 2017, 09:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
The following play is the reason I bring it up.

https://youtu.be/g_V63kyO37I

A couple problems here with the way it was handled.

If you watch the celebration, the OC does physically direct her back to the plate (0:27). There's no other reason for her to reverse her direction.

That should have been the out (based on your response, Mike).

The tag that F2 put on the BR was with a new game ball the PU gave her (not a valid DB appeal and should have been ignored), HOWEVER,

after F2 makes the tag (and PU properly disallows the appeal), the next logical thing would've been "but blue, she missed the plate!", which WOULD be a proper DB appeal.

Except, in the 1.2 seconds it would take to say that, BR may have made it back to the plate.
That was a college game played under NCAA and it led to a lot of confusion.
NCAA itself chimed in with some half baked response ( in order for the appeal to be granted with a new ball shouldn't the ball first be made live??) and stated that once ball was given to the catcher the appeal was valid.
Which led to even more confusion such as can a runner be called out on an assist when the ball is dead???
And is just handing a new ball to the defense enough to allow an appeal??
Not is baseball and I am pretty sure not in USA softball either.
( The case play listed in the USA rulebook deals with a live ball situation)
So--look for a rule change next year, at least in NCAA.
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Old Mon Jul 10, 2017, 02:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Speaking USA, yes. 8.7.E.
8-7-E specifically addresses assistance while the ball is live.

The Exception to 8-7-E is a little unclear because it addresses when a runner who has just scored but misses home is assisted back to home; what's not clear about it is if the miss happened during a live ball or a dead one. The Effect says the ball is dead, the runner is out and the run is nullified. But that could very well mean that at the time the assist took place, the ball was live, but the umpire should kill play once the assistance happens.

So, is there a USA clarification that says 8-7-E also applies when the ball is dead, such as on a home run?
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Old Mon Jul 10, 2017, 03:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
8-7-E specifically addresses assistance while the ball is live.

The Exception to 8-7-E is a little unclear because it addresses when a runner who has just scored but misses home is assisted back to home; what's not clear about it is if the miss happened during a live ball or a dead one. The Effect says the ball is dead, the runner is out and the run is nullified. But that could very well mean that at the time the assist took place, the ball was live, but the umpire should kill play once the assistance happens.

So, is there a USA clarification that says 8-7-E also applies when the ball is dead, such as on a home run?
I think that has been asked before, with no clear answer, so I guess we have to leave it to those who have case books.
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Old Tue Jul 11, 2017, 08:12am
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The play itself amazes me in that...

F2 was locked on, watching the runner as she crossed (missed) the plate. It seems an instinctive reaction would've been "she missed it!", even under her breath. PU next to her, "OUT!"

A crowd of admirers greet her at the plate, watch her cross (miss) it. Amazed there wasn't a mass pushing of the runner back to the dish. Again, OUT!

I'm sure I would have been locked on the actions of the runner (unfortunately, probably to the point of obviousness), waiting for an appeal. He completely turned away from the action.
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Old Tue Jul 11, 2017, 09:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
8-7-E specifically addresses assistance while the ball is live.

The Exception to 8-7-E is a little unclear because it addresses when a runner who has just scored but misses home is assisted back to home; what's not clear about it is if the miss happened during a live ball or a dead one. The Effect says the ball is dead, the runner is out and the run is nullified. But that could very well mean that at the time the assist took place, the ball was live, but the umpire should kill play once the assistance happens.

So, is there a USA clarification that says 8-7-E also applies when the ball is dead, such as on a home run?
Pretty sure there was a clarification by KR which noted that the ball itself may have entered DBT, but there is still live running assignments to which the rules are applicable.

It should also be noted that this is not an appeal play which was the initial play where the OP started.
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Old Tue Jul 11, 2017, 09:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Pretty sure there was a clarification by KR which noted that the ball itself may have entered DBT, but there is still live running assignments to which the rules are applicable.
Great!

See ---- " those who have case books"
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Old Tue Jul 11, 2017, 09:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
It should also be noted that this is not an appeal play which was the initial play where the OP started.
Just for new reader clarity, the coach assist is not an appeal, but the missed plate without the assist would be.
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Old Tue Jul 11, 2017, 10:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Pretty sure there was a clarification by KR which noted that the ball itself may have entered DBT, but there is still live running assignments to which the rules are applicable.

It should also be noted that this is not an appeal play which was the initial play where the OP started.
Yeah, I do now believe that USA put out a clarification on this specific NCAA play that included an out call for assisting the runner to return home. I trust that there will be something in the rule book about this next year.
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Old Tue Jul 11, 2017, 10:45am
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Correct Irish... sorry for causing my own tangent
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