Leaving the lineup

[chapmaja]

I had this situation Monday night slow pitch game, USA rules with local modification (allow team to start with 8 players).

Co-Rec league, 1:15 time limit. During the game we have a 30 minute weather delay due to thunder and lightening. We have extended beyond the time limit when the home teams time at bat comes up so this will be the last at bat for the team in the game and they will not play defense after. The home team only has 10 players (5 male, 5 female)

B1 (male) comes up and gets a hit. He later comes around and scores. After he has completed his batting and base running duties, he has to leave for work. He has left the dugout when another batter male batter comes up to the plate. This batter feels the first pitch is below 6 feet. He decides to persistently inform me that the pitch was illegal (in my opinion it was right at 6 feet as I am just under 6 feet and I had to look up while tracking the ball). He has made his point but continues complaining, while standing out of the batters box. I inform him we are playing ball, please step into the box. He continues to complain. I pretty much tell him we are doing, so he drops the "what are you going to do, throw me out?" Yep, he is ejected. At this point he starts dropping F-bombs at me to secure his place outside the stadium for the finish.

The game finishes in a tie. Since we were beyond the time limit, and we were the last game of the night, I have to give both managers the option to continue the game.

The visiting manager wants to keep playing, the home team manager does not.

After the handshake line, the visiting team manager indicates that the game should be a forfeit because the team was down to 8 players. (5 females and 3 males). He never uses the word protest, so I take the comments under advisement and sign the scoresheet, before leaving.

In all of this one question remains.

When has a player actually left the game. Obviously the ejected player leaves when he is tossed, but what about a player who completes his turn at bat, then leaves while the team is at bat. Obviously if his turn at bat comes back up, he would have left the game, but when he leaves the dugout area has he left the game, or would he not have left the game until the next half inning when he was supposed to go to play defense in the field and could not.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I had this situation Monday night slow pitch game, USA rules with local modification (allow team to start with 8 players).

Co-Rec league, 1:15 time limit. During the game we have a 30 minute weather delay due to thunder and lightening. We have extended beyond the time limit when the home teams time at bat comes up so this will be the last at bat for the team in the game and they will not play defense after. The home team only has 10 players (5 male, 5 female)

B1 (male) comes up and gets a hit. He later comes around and scores. After he has completed his batting and base running duties, he has to leave for work. He has left the dugout when another batter male batter comes up to the plate. This batter feels the first pitch is below 6 feet. He decides to persistently inform me that the pitch was illegal (in my opinion it was right at 6 feet as I am just under 6 feet and I had to look up while tracking the ball). He has made his point but continues complaining, while standing out of the batters box. I inform him we are playing ball, please step into the box. He continues to complain. I pretty much tell him we are doing, so he drops the "what are you going to do, throw me out?" Yep, he is ejected. At this point he starts dropping F-bombs at me to secure his place outside the stadium for the finish.

The game finishes in a tie. Since we were beyond the time limit, and we were the last game of the night, I have to give both managers the option to continue the game.

The visiting manager wants to keep playing, the home team manager does not.

After the handshake line, the visiting team manager indicates that the game should be a forfeit because the team was down to 8 players. (5 females and 3 males). He never uses the word protest, so I take the comments under advisement and sign the scoresheet, before leaving.

In all of this one question remains.

When has a player actually left the game. Obviously the ejected player leaves when he is tossed, but what about a player who completes his turn at bat, then leaves while the team is at bat. Obviously if his turn at bat comes back up, he would have left the game, but when he leaves the dugout area has he left the game, or would he not have left the game until the next half inning when he was supposed to go to play defense in the field and could not.

Continue playing what? Game was over the minute a team went shorthanded by ejection.

[BlueDevilRef]

I say no. Especially in adult leagues. He could be in the beer line for all you really know. He has not left the game until his turn comes to bat or he is absent from defense without being subbed out.

["Lurker"77]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

. . . but when he leaves the dugout area has he left the game, or would he not have left the game until the next half inning when he was supposed to go to play defense in the field and could not.

Can't speak to USA rulebook, but merely from a recreational sports angle, shouldn't any ruling treat this guy in his car going to work in the same way that it would treat a player in the restroom outside the dugout, tending to a situation with a child outside the dugout, a player who runs to the parking lot to grab a water bottle, or (in a different vein) an incapacitated/injured player who is listed in the lineup and in the dugout. If it does not delay/interfere with their involvement in play, how would the umpire on the field differentiate among them until something actually happens on the field in the game? Is a (recreational) player's work schedule or injury status--even in the obvious cases-- something an umpire's wants to claim knowledge and jurisdiction over?

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Continue playing what? Game was over the minute a team when shorthanded by ejection.

this may be where the local modifications come in. We do allow playing with 9. They started with 10, so the ejection dropped them to 9, a legal number in league play.

I will twist the question a little bit for you.

Say the ejection doesn't happen. When does the team begin playing shorthanded, when the player leaves the dug out to go to work, or when it is his turn to bat or play defense? That really is the crux of the issue I am asking.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by "Lurker"77

Can't speak to USA rulebook, but merely from a recreational sports angle, shouldn't any ruling treat this guy in his car going to work in the same way that it would treat a player in the restroom outside the dugout, tending to a situation with a child outside the dugout, a player who runs to the parking lot to grab a water bottle, or (in a different vein) an incapacitated/injured player who is listed in the lineup and in the dugout. If it does not delay/interfere with their involvement in play, how would the umpire on the field differentiate among them until something actually happens on the field in the game? Is a (recreational) player's work schedule or injury status--even in the obvious cases-- something an umpire's wants to claim knowledge and jurisdiction over?

This was my opinion of the situation also, but it has become an issue within the department to some extent.

[CecilOne]

L R A M B F ! ! again.

Does the alleged local rule SPECIFICALLY disagree with Irish's post?

Book rules are bad enough with gaps.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I say no. Especially in adult leagues. He could be in the beer line for all you really know. He has not left the game until his turn comes to bat or he is absent from defense without being subbed out.

The OP offered a "given" fact that the player was gone. But even if the player wasn't gone, a team cannot lose a player that takes them below the limit of players with which they started via ejection.

Then you have the issue where the permitted male/female ratio required is no longer available

Again this is based on the rules. What the local fools....er, rules do beyond that is up to and on them

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The OP offered a "given" fact that the player was gone. But even if the player wasn't gone, a team cannot lose a player that takes them below the limit of players with which they started via ejection.

Then you have the issue where the permitted male/female ratio required is no longer available

Again this is based on the rules. What the local fools....er, rules do beyond that is up to and on them

You still haven't answered the question that was really posed.

AT WHAT POINT HAS HE OFFICIALLY LEFT, WHEN HE LEAVES THE TEAM AREA, OR WHEN HIS TURN TO BAT COMES UP OR THE TEAM GOES ON DEFENSE?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

You still haven't answered the question that was really posed.

AT WHAT POINT HAS HE OFFICIALLY LEFT, WHEN HE LEAVES THE TEAM AREA, OR WHEN HIS TURN TO BAT COMES UP OR THE TEAM GOES ON DEFENSE?

"After he has completed his batting and base running duties, he has to leave for work. He has left the dugout when another batter male batter comes up to the plate"

[robbie]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

You still haven't answered the question that was really posed.

AT WHAT POINT HAS HE OFFICIALLY LEFT, WHEN HE LEAVES THE TEAM AREA, OR WHEN HIS TURN TO BAT COMES UP OR THE TEAM GOES ON DEFENSE?

Unless i see a rule to the contrary, in my game he is still "here" until he is either required to bat or to take the field and cannot do so.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by robbie

Unless i see a rule to the contrary, in my game he is still "here" until he is either required to bat or to take the field and cannot do so.

Bad news for you Robbie, it isn't YOUR game. The game belongs to the players or when the team reports his departure.

He has left the game when he picks up his equipment and leaves the ball park. The player leaving is IRRELEVANT to the ruling in this thread.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Bad news for you Robbie, it isn't YOUR game. The game belongs to the players or when the team reports his departure.

He has left the game when he picks up his equipment and leaves the ball park. The player leaving is IRRELEVANT to the ruling in this thread.

The OP as posted had way too much going on and that makes you right about it being irrelevant.

But can we take a shot at the interesting meat of this question? Here's a new situation that addresses only the departure issue more squarely. Men's SP Team B is already playing shorthanded. Another player from Team B leaves the dugout in a) carrying his bag, in b) not carrying his bag. It's long way to the parking lot but he finally makes it there and throws his stuff in his car. He then drives out of the parking lot right past the field. At what point does the game end as a forfeit. And let's say it matters because it's the bottom of the last inning and team B has rallied to pull even and then potentially win at times appropriately intermixed with the leaving player's behavior to make the question interesting. Further, suppose the departing player does not come up to bat during the inning.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by youngump

The OP as posted had way too much going on and that makes you right about it being irrelevant.

But can we take a shot at the interesting meat of this question? Here's a new situation that addresses only the departure issue more squarely. Men's SP Team B is already playing shorthanded. Another player from Team B leaves the dugout in a) carrying his bag, in b) not carrying his bag. It's long way to the parking lot but he finally makes it there and throws his stuff in his car. He then drives out of the parking lot right past the field. At what point does the game end as a forfeit. And let's say it matters because it's the bottom of the last inning and team B has rallied to pull even and then potentially win at times appropriately intermixed with the leaving player's behavior to make the question interesting. Further, suppose the departing player does not come up to bat during the inning.

I note that in your scenario nothing has apparently been officially reported to the plate umpire. Correct?

[robbie]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Bad news for you Robbie, it isn't YOUR game. The game belongs to the players or when the team reports his departure.

He has left the game when he picks up his equipment and leaves the ball park. The player leaving is IRRELEVANT to the ruling in this thread.

Does a rule specifically say that?

Perhaps we was driving to 7/11 to get a slurpy and will be back for his AB or place in the field.