BIZARRE Play - Abandonment?

[Ump K]

Had a BIZARRE play happen in a game this weekend that made me wonder what is the correct ruling is if something similar to this play would happen again.


Situation;

R1 & R2, no outs. BR bunts the ball in the air in front of the plate F2 dives for the ball.

PU sees the ball wasn't caught and signals fair ball. F1 throws the ball to F6 at 3B, R2 is safe at 3B.

BR is safe at 1B, however coach thinks it is foul ball and sends BR back to the plate.

F6 throws to F1 who tags BR out between 1B & HP. Case closed no problem for us.


However;

Should've we called BR out when she started back to HP AFTER she was SAFE at 1B?
BR was legally safe at 1B. What if she got into a run-down between 1B & HP. Would she be out if she would retreat to HP?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Was she stepping back to avoid or attempting to delay a tag?

Did she abandon running the bases by entering dead ball territory?

Those would be the applicable rule citations.

[teebob21]

Steve nailed it. As the OP is written, the ball was never returned to F1 in the circle (LBR) nor was it declared dead. No other rules concerning the BR seem to come into play here. When the ball is live, runners can go wherever they please, provided they are not involved in a tag situation (which invokes the basepath rule).

The ball is live and the BR (technically a runner now) is out on the tag. Retreating back to home is no longer INT. Since she already reached 1B, if she had been caught in a rundown, it would be ruled just like any runner in any other rundown headed to any other base.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Steve nailed it. As the OP is written, the ball was never returned to F1 in the circle (LBR) nor was it declared dead. No other rules concerning the BR seem to come into play here. When the ball is live, runners can go wherever they please, provided they are not involved in a tag situation (which invokes the basepath rule).

The ball is live and the BR (technically a runner now) is out on the tag. Retreating back to home is no longer INT. Since she already reached 1B, if she had been caught in a rundown, it would be ruled just like any runner in any other rundown headed to any other base.

I think that the crux of this question is the spot that you and Steve appear to disagree. Steve says: Was she stepping back to avoid or attempting to delay a tag? is an applicable rule. You say that rule doesn't apply because she reached first base. I think that is right. But you also say Steve nailed it. What am I missing?

[CecilOne]

Isn't the stepping back rule based on nowhere to go?
IOW, even in a rundown, the runner can't go back to HP.

[josephrt1]

Originally Posted by youngump

You say that rule doesn't apply because she reached first base. I think that is right. But you also say Steve nailed it.

I think that rule of stepping back would still apply between home and 1st. there is a rule somewhere in the book that if a runner reaches a base she is forced to and then steps back, the force is reinstated. I don't think she can get in a traditional rundown between home and 1st, even if she did already reach first. if the defense is trying to tag her and she steps back between 1st and home, my vote is that the runner is out for INT even in this situation.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I cannot help myself, I have to say something about this.

How can anyone even think of a rundown between home and first base?

[Dakota]

One other thing asked in your thread title...

USA does not have the concept of "abandonment" without the runner actually entering DBT.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I cannot help myself, I have to say something about this.

How can anyone even think of a rundown between home and first base?

Because if you read the rule literally that's what it says. The BR has reached first base so she can now retreat toward home without committing interference. The only other spot (that I can think of) that mentions something changing when the BR reaches first is the look back rule. If the Batter hits a single walks down to first and then steps back toward home and just stands there and the pitcher gets in the circle, would you call a LBR violation. TWP I know, but it's illustrative. They don't have to be read the same way but it does make some sense.

That said, I agree it's a little ridiculous and it gets worse if you carry it to it's logical conclusion, so I'm fine with the idea of that rule applying. It just requires stretching the language.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

Because if you read the rule literally that's what it says. The BR has reached first base so she can now retreat toward home without committing interference.

Actually, I was referring to the absurdity of there being a rundown between home and 1st.

The only other spot (that I can think of) that mentions something changing when the BR reaches first is the look back rule. If the Batter hits a single walks down to first and then steps back toward home and just stands there and the pitcher gets in the circle, would you call a LBR violation.

Yep

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Actually, I was referring to the absurdity of there being a rundown between home and 1st.

Absurd does not mean impossible. See also: the "Oregon play".

If I was a coach needing a run, I might envision some shenanigans with R1 after she reaches 1B, up to and including retreating to home. If anyone has rule support for an out between HP and 1B on BR/R1 after reaching 1B, I'm all ears.

[josephrt1]

Originally Posted by teebob21

If anyone has rule support for an out between HP and 1B on BR/R1 after reaching 1B, I'm all ears.

the USA/ASA rule 8.2.H says "when a batter runner steps back towards home plate to avoid or delay a tag by a fielder."

There is nothing in here that says once she reaches 1st base this rule disappears. If she reaches 1st but steps back and is now between 1st and home and then tries to avoid a tag by stepping back (more) I think the rule still supports calling an out for batter-runner interference; she's stepping back towards home plate to avoid or delay a tag by a fielder. She is out.

[josephrt1]

Originally Posted by youngump

Because if you read the rule literally that's what it says.

I don't follow. which rule are you referring to?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by josephrt1

the USA/ASA rule 8.2.H says "when a batter runner steps back towards home plate to avoid or delay a tag by a fielder."

There is nothing in here that says once she reaches 1st base this rule disappears. If she reaches 1st but steps back and is now between 1st and home and then tries to avoid a tag by stepping back (more) I think the rule still supports calling an out for batter-runner interference; she's stepping back towards home plate to avoid or delay a tag by a fielder. She is out.

The definition of "Batter Runner" in Section 1 states that a player is a BR when she completes her at-bat but has not been put out or "reached first base". This player did reach first, so her status as a BR is over.

So, does she reestablish herself as a BR when she retreats toward home, and makes herself viable for an interference call when she steps back to avoid a tag? I don't think there's any rule or interpretation that supports an argument either way. The closest would be the one that says a runner who makes it safely to a forced base but then retreats for any reason reinstates herself as a forced runner, so maybe that's justification for treating this player as a BR should she retreat back toward home.

Hmmm, interesting.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I cannot help myself, I have to say something about this.

How can anyone even think of a rundown between home and first base?

Two words: Rec Ball

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by josephrt1

the USA/ASA rule 8.2.H says "when a batter runner steps back towards home plate to avoid or delay a tag by a fielder."

There is nothing in here that says once she reaches 1st base this rule disappears. If she reaches 1st but steps back and is now between 1st and home and then tries to avoid a tag by stepping back (more) I think the rule still supports calling an out for batter-runner interference; she's stepping back towards home plate to avoid or delay a tag by a fielder. She is out.

Well, now this may be one case in which 8.3.D could be applied