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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 02:04am
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Base Abandonment on the Final Play

I am a baseball coach who also officiates basketball. I witnessed the following play in a baseball playoff game and would like some expert analysis:

Tie game bases loaded 1 out in the 7th Inning (NFHS). BR attempts squeeze, gets bunt down and touches 1st base. R3 touches plate, but R2 and R3 fail to touch 2nd and 3rd respectively and join in a celebration on the IF. If there is no appeal by the defensive team, can R2 and R3 be declared out for abandonment, and if so, would the run score?
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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 08:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMEngmann View Post
I am a baseball coach who also officiates basketball. I witnessed the following play in a baseball playoff game and would like some expert analysis:

Tie game bases loaded 1 out in the 7th Inning (NFHS). BR attempts squeeze, gets bunt down and touches 1st base. R3 touches plate, but R2 and R3 fail to touch 2nd and 3rd respectively and join in a celebration on the IF. If there is no appeal by the defensive team, can R2 and R3 be declared out for abandonment, and if so, would the run score?
As described in OP, this is not abandonment.

8-4-1p Note: Any runner, after reaching first base, who leaves the baseline heading for the dugout or his defensive position believing that there is no further play, shall be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his effort to run the bases.

Since the runners were neither heading for the dugout nor a defensive position, they should not be called out for abandonment.
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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 08:11am
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Abandonment is not a force out so the run scores but the defense could appeal to get the force outs and continue the game
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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 08:22am
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Abandonment is not a force out so the run scores but the defense could appeal to get the force outs and continue the game
Which is it?
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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 08:25am
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Originally Posted by BEAREF View Post
Which is it?
I think Bob is saying that, even if an umpire judges abandonment, the run still scores. However, if the defense appeals the play, the appeals in this case are force outs, and the run would not score.
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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 08:26am
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Originally Posted by BEAREF View Post
Which is it?
Yes.
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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 08:58am
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And, in this case, the order of the appeals would make a big difference, wouldn't it?

R1 and R2 both miss 2nd and 3rd base, respectively.

If you first appeal R2 missing 3rd, then R1 missing 2nd, you'll get force outs for both, meaning the inning ends, no run scores, and we go to the 8th inning.

If you first appeal R1 missing 2nd, then R2 missing 3rd, you'll get R1 out on a force, but then you'll have removed the force from R2, which means that even though R2 will still be called out for missing 3rd, the run will still score and the game will be over.
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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 09:01am
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Originally Posted by jTheUmp View Post
And, in this case, the order of the appeals would make a big difference, wouldn't it?

R1 and R2 both miss 2nd and 3rd base, respectively.

If you first appeal R2 missing 3rd, then R1 missing 2nd, you'll get force outs for both, meaning the inning ends, no run scores, and we go to the 8th inning.

If you first appeal R1 missing 2nd, then R2 missing 3rd, you'll get R1 out on a force, but then you'll have removed the force from R2, which means that even though R2 will still be called out for missing 3rd, the run will still score and the game will be over.
Correct.
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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 10:06am
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Originally Posted by jTheUmp View Post
And, in this case, the order of the appeals would make a big difference, wouldn't it?

R1 and R2 both miss 2nd and 3rd base, respectively.

If you first appeal R2 missing 3rd, then R1 missing 2nd, you'll get force outs for both, meaning the inning ends, no run scores, and we go to the 8th inning.

If you first appeal R1 missing 2nd, then R2 missing 3rd, you'll get R1 out on a force, but then you'll have removed the force from R2, which means that even though R2 will still be called out for missing 3rd, the run will still score and the game will be over.
And let the s***storm begin when the you tell the coach that the run still counts because he appealed in the wrong order.
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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 10:50am
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Originally Posted by TwoBits View Post
As described in OP, this is not abandonment.

8-4-1p Note: Any runner, after reaching first base, who leaves the baseline heading for the dugout or his defensive position believing that there is no further play, shall be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his effort to run the bases.

Since the runners were neither heading for the dugout nor a defensive position, they should not be called out for abandonment.
Huh? The runners essentially gave up their running responsibilities by joining in on a game-ending celebration. How is that not considered "abandoning his effort to run the bases"? One could argue they were on their way to the dugout, but stopped along the way to celebrate. They certainly weren't postponing their effort to run the bases.

Also, there is verbiage in the NFHS case book that supports abandonment calls without the need for the runner to go all the way to the dugout or defensive position:
- Under case play 8.4.2 Situation C, there's a sentence that reads, "Upon reaching base a runner abandons his effort when he leaves the baseline."
- Case play 8.4.2 Situation V involves a runner who thought he was out when he really wasn't, and the ruling says, "When R2 began leaving the field, he should be considered as having abandoned his effort to return or advance, and shall be declared out."
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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 10:53am
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Originally Posted by BEAREF View Post
Which is it?
Both.

Abandonment is not an appeal at all ... it's called when it happens.
OTOH, this isn't really an appeal anyway is it... it's simply making a play on a forced runner who has not yet reached his base. Shame on defense for not doing so. They are not appealing a missed base... they are simply making a throw to a base for a force out, like we see them do all game long.
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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 10:55am
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Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
Huh? The runners essentially gave up their running responsibilities by joining in on a game-ending celebration. How is that not considered "abandoning his effort to run the bases"? One could argue they were on their way to the dugout, but stopped along the way to celebrate. They certainly weren't postponing their effort to run the bases.

Also, there is verbiage in the NFHS case book that supports abandonment calls without the need for the runner to go all the way to the dugout or defensive position:
- Under case play 8.4.2 Situation C, there's a sentence that reads, "Upon reaching base a runner abandons his effort when he leaves the baseline."
- Case play 8.4.2 Situation V involves a runner who thought he was out when he really wasn't, and the ruling says, "When R2 began leaving the field, he should be considered as having abandoned his effort to return or advance, and shall be declared out."
That case play applies after they reach whatever base they are heading to, and then leave (and wouldn't be a force out even if we bothered to call it as such.)
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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 01:27pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Correct.
You sure about that? I thought the force was determined at the time the base is missed, not when the appeal is made.

R1, R3, one out. The batter singles, R3 scores, and R1 misses 2nd base on his way to 3rd. The B/R is thrown out trying for 2. The defense appeals R1's miss.

Does the run score?
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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 01:29pm
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Originally Posted by dash_riprock View Post
You sure about that? I thought the force was determined at the time the base is missed, not when the appeal is made.

R1, R3, one out. The batter singles, R3 scores, and R1 misses 2nd base on his way to 3rd. The B/R is thrown out trying for 2. The defense appeals R1's miss.

Does the run score?
I thought that's was correct, too, and even remembered a thread about it recently. Turns out it was on the softball board. Still would like clarification in regards to baseball, though.
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Old Thu May 23, 2013, 01:39pm
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Originally Posted by dash_riprock View Post
You sure about that? I thought the force was determined at the time the base is missed, not when the appeal is made.

R1, R3, one out. The batter singles, R3 scores, and R1 misses 2nd base on his way to 3rd. The B/R is thrown out trying for 2. The defense appeals R1's miss.

Does the run score?
The play in the OP has nothing at all to do with missed base appeals... it's simply a force play on a runner who has not achieved the base they were forced to ... and in the case where R1 is put out first, R2 no longer has to go to 3rd base at all, and can't be forced at 3rd (or appealed for that matter...)

The OP does not say the runners run past their bases and then join the celebration ... they simply don't run to their bases at all. Completely different from your missed base appeal situation.
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