Checked swing-D3K

[MT 73]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

You should ask for help in a timely fashion, but frankly, if the BU is in B or C position, you should avoid asking for help anyhow...

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Since we are talking baseball-- in MLB-- OBR-- the plate umpire must go for help on a checked swing request no matter in what position the BU was in.
But not so in NFHS ball-- the PU can ignore the request.

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by MT 73

Since we are talking baseball-- in MLB-- OBR-- the plate umpire must go for help on a checked swing request.
But not so in NFHS ball.

He can ask me all he wants. I officiate OBR, but I will never rule a checked swing a strike from B or C unless it is blatantly obvious, in which case the plate guy should have seen it. I have no angle from B or C to determine if the batter swung.

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[MT 73]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

He can ask me all he wants. I officiate OBR, but I will never rule a checked swing a strike from B or C unless it is blatantly obvious, in which case the plate guy should have seen it. I have no angle from B or C to determine if the batter swung.

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The MLBUM manual says different.
Page 51--paragraph 71 under the heading of Check Swing Appeals---of the 2017 MLBUM:
"Under Official Baseball Rules the plate umpire has an obligation to ask for help when the manager or catcher of the defensive team requests an appeal.."

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by MT 73

The MLBUM manual says different.
And unless you are a MLB or Minor League umpire you do NOT officiate under OBR.

True, we use OBR rules in Massachusetts, however.

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[MT 73]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

True, we use OBR rules in Massachusetts, however.

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I took that part out to avoid being sarcastic--not fast enough it seems.
Youth leagues, such as Babe Ruth, Little League, Pony and others use modified OBR to allow for safety concerns and the ability to bat extra players, allow substitutes to re enter, etc.
If your leagues allow modifications such as these then you do not use true OBR.
Then again, I do not umpire in Massachusetts so Quien Sabe?

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by MT 73

I took that part out to avoid being sarcastic--not fast enough it seems.
Youth leagues, such as Babe Ruth, Little League, Pony and others use modified OBR to allow for safety concerns and the ability to bat extra players, allow substitutes to re enter, etc.
If your leagues allow modifications such as these then you do not use true OBR.
Then again, I do not umpire in Massachusetts so you may actually use OBR.

The only modification I am aware of has to do with disqualifications. Players can be restricted to the bench. Also, the MIAA has established an official warning system for coaches. We only get the OBR rule book and we use MLB umpire training materials for our clinics. Some of the OBR rules don't fit the HS game very well all the time, but it is easier to umpire, in my opinion, than NFHS. We have no reentry, and no extra batters. I actually think the recent safety innovations in the MLB rules are also adequate at the HS level.

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[MT 73]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

The only modification I am aware of has to do with disqualifications. Players can be restricted to the bench. Also, the MIAA has established an official warning system for coaches. We only get the OBR rule book and we use MLB umpire training materials for our clinics. Some of the OBR rules don't fit the HS game very well all the time, but it is easier to umpire, in my opinion, than NFHS. We have no reentry, and no extra batters. I actually think the recent safety innovations in the MLB rules are also adequate at the HS level.

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Well it looks as if you guys do use OBR, with just a tad of modifications.
HS rules are a whole other animal!!
In addition to Babe Ruth baseball I umpire HS softball but so many of our summer baseball tournaments here in NY use NFHS that I was forced to learn that rule book as well.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

The only modification I am aware of has to do with disqualifications. Players can be restricted to the bench. Also, the MIAA has established an official warning system for coaches. We only get the OBR rule book and we use MLB umpire training materials for our clinics. Some of the OBR rules don't fit the HS game very well all the time, but it is easier to umpire, in my opinion, than NFHS. We have no reentry, and no extra batters. I actually think the recent safety innovations in the MLB rules are also adequate at the HS level.

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So in any BB or SB code that requires you to go, as PU in 3 man, with runner/s on in the various perturbations you go to U? with LHB and U? with RHB. If you are BU in 3 man you tell PU in the briefing to go to whoever is on the wing with any batter because you won't have a ruling if he came come to you or it will be a no? Aside, I think at one point in some 3 man code they always went to the wing even if the inside ump was on the right side. So the debate is ongoing.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by MT 73

And unless you are a MLB or Minor League umpire you do NOT officiate under OBR.

Originally Posted by Mbilica

True, we use OBR rules in Massachusetts, however.

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OBR and OBR-based rules are also used in LL, Dixie, USSSA, Babe Ruth, Legion, etc. etc. etc.

[CecilOne]

Should I ask about illegal pitches, 12" or 11" game balls, cylindrical bats, look back rule, DP/FLEX, windmill motions, live ball walks, or quick moving games on the baseball forum?

[BretMan]

Wondering what the difference is between something being "obvious" and "blatantly obvious"...

If I'm on the bases, I tell my partner to feel free to come to me on a checked swing no matter where I'm set up.

"But! But! But! You can't see that from there..."

Maybe I can, maybe I can't. If I can't, then I'm not going to overrule you and call a strike. But if I can, I will.

It's not "impossible" to make this call from sub-optimal positions. Just don't guess at a call. If you really can't tell, the default is "no swing". You did your job as best you could- be happy with that and move on!

[MT 73]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Originally Posted by MT 73

And unless you are a MLB or Minor League umpire you do NOT officiate under OBR.




OBR and OBR-based rules are also used in LL, Dixie, USSSA, Babe Ruth, Legion, etc. etc. etc.

I deleted that nasty crack--too late apparently.
But as far as I know only professional baseball uses true OBR.
As I already stated in post #34, Many youth organizations use modified OBR to allow for safety concerns and more leeway to extra playing time.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

He can ask me all he wants. I officiate OBR, but I will never rule a checked swing a strike from B or C unless it is blatantly obvious, in which case the plate guy should have seen it. I have no angle from B or C to determine if the batter swung.

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What are you doing to get checked swings correct? What's your mechanic? What's your focus?

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

What are you doing to get checked swings correct? What's your mechanic? What's your focus?

As the pitch is delivered, I turn my attention from the pitcher to the plate area. I am looking for

- batter fouling the ball off of himself
- Hit by pitch
- a foul dropped by the catcher/foul tip
- swing or no swing
- foul or swing and miss
- interference by the batter or catcher

Im not sure what you are looking for with regards to focus. I have been taught that the old ideas about swing/ no swing are incorrect. That is, bringing the bat head over the plate or in front of the plate is not necessarily an offer. "Breaking the wrists" is not necessarily an offer. An offer is judged on a number of criteria that have to do with multiple factors. When I am in B or C, I do not have complete information on whether the offer was made when it is close. I'm not saying I would never rule that the batter offered from the middle or the back of the batter. But it would need to be clear and obvious. It is not unlike calling a balk on a LHP whose free foot may or may not have broken the plane of the back of the pitchers plate prior to throwing to first. Being in B position places you at a disadvantage when trying to see that fine line as well.


Here is a guideline from the NFHS baseball rules that I think is helpful (10-1-4). A nearly identical statement is found in NFHS softball rule 2-11

As an aid in deciding, the umpire may note whether the swing carried the barrel of the bat past the body of the batter, but final decision is based on whether the batter actually struck at the ball.

It is impossible to see if the barrel came past the body of the batter (if it's close) if you are in B or C. Even if that may not be the deciding factor anyway, B or C position is not a good position to see whatever you need to see.

In the OBR rules, there is no such guidance, but there is a reference to the appeal being made to the 1st or 3rd base umpire.

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[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

In the OBR rules, there is no such guidance, but there is a reference to the appeal being made to the 1st or 3rd base umpire.

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Yes, in 3 man PBUC says go to U1 with a RHB and U3 with a LHB with or without runners. So with a LHB they require going to U3 in deep B with R1 if the defense asks or for some reason the PU was blocked. What you give him is up to you.