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-   -   Checked swing-D3K (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/102742-checked-swing-d3k.html)

jmkupka Mon Jun 12, 2017 02:02pm

Checked swing-D3K
 
Posting this because I promised a fellow umpire I would.

2 outs. 0-2 count. Checked swing, ball touches the ground, F2 fires to F3 (Batter isn't running),
F3 touches 1B. No call by BU.

DC (or F2, whatever) appeals the check swing. F3 says, "yes, she went".

At this point F3 is leaving the field after tossing the ball to the circle.

Can you see what's about to happen here?

BU's call is, the 3rd strike wasn't effective until it was appealed to him, hence F3's touch of 1B did not result in an out. It has to be touched again.

Mountaincoach Mon Jun 12, 2017 02:28pm

Isn't this the rare occasion where the BU is instructed to call the swing immediately and not wait on the appeal from anyone else? Secondly, as a coach, I'd probably want to strangle my F3 if she decided to become the umpire and then toss the ball to the circle prematurely.

CecilOne Mon Jun 12, 2017 04:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmkupka (Post 1006836)
BU's call is, the 3rd strike wasn't effective until it was appealed to him, hence F3's touch of 1B did not result in an out. It has to be touched again.

Nonsense !!! The act of strike 3 uncaught happened when it happened, identifying it later does not change the timing. If then, the umps decide they need the jeopardy rule, a different step.

MT 73 Mon Jun 12, 2017 04:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmkupka (Post 1006836)
Posting this because I promised a fellow umpire I would.

2 outs. 0-2 count. Checked swing, ball touches the ground, F2 fires to F3 (Batter isn't running),
F3 touches 1B. No call by BU.

DC (or F2, whatever) appeals the check swing. F3 says, "yes, she went".

At this point F3 is leaving the field after tossing the ball to the circle.

Can you see what's about to happen here?

BU's call is, the 3rd strike wasn't effective until it was appealed to him, hence F3's touch of 1B did not result in an out. It has to be touched again.

I am utterly confused.
Why is the first baseman(F3) deciding whether or not the batter went?
In any case this is an example of bad umpire mechanics.
The PU should have immediately stated "Yes she did" or "No she didn't"
If it is the former and If I were the PU I will then give a safe signal and verbilize "No Catch"
Now that my job is completed the players should know what to do.

teebob21 Mon Jun 12, 2017 06:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmkupka (Post 1006836)
Posting this because I promised a fellow umpire I would.

2 outs. 0-2 count. Checked swing, ball touches the ground, F2 fires to F3 (Batter isn't running),
F3 touches 1B. No call by BU.

DC (or F2, whatever) appeals the check swing. F3 U1 says, "yes, she went".

At this point F3 is leaving the field after tossing the ball to the circle.

Can you see what's about to happen here?

BU's call is, the 3rd strike wasn't effective until it was appealed to him, hence F3's touch of 1B did not result in an out. It has to be touched again.

The strike happened when the batter swung in the judgment of U1, IF the plate umpire went for help on the swing. Base umpires should not rule on a check swing based on a player/coach request, but on the request of the PU. I assume that's what happened here, but if not...ugh. No comment beyond "ugh...that's postgame material". Now, advanced crews who pre-game this -- maybe the base umpire makes a ruling without the PU asking on 2 strikes, but that's a deviation I don't use even with my most trusted partners.

It matters not one whit how long it takes for U1 to communicate that to the PU and the teams, "appealed" or otherwise. If F2 threw to 1B, and F3 touched 1B while in possession of the ball before the runner got there...it's an out. The BU should acknowledge the strike with a hammer, then make it clear (point) that the BR is out on the throw to 1B.

josephrt1 Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:08am

Boy was i confused with some of these responses. There are 3 or 4 scenarios I could envision from this OP.

1. F2 did not return ball directly to the pitcher. Since PU did not call this a strike, it is ball 1. Since the ball did not go to the pitcher, should PU have called ball 2? The defense would also realize he wasn't giving them the 3rd strike and they would need to ask for help. if after PU asks for help the BU does signal a swing, then PU would announce Strike 3, and BU would signal out at 1st. (even if the throw down was before the BU called it a swing.)

2. What if you modify the OP and we have a full count. Batter and PU think it was a check swing. Batter trots down to 1st. BU makes no call when F2 throws to F3 and treats like a Base on Balls and not a DTS because PU never signaled strike. After catcher realizes BU did not make an out call and runner standing on 1B, Catcher would realize something wrong and ask PU, "didn't she swing" which would prompt the "Partner. Did she swing?" BU signals strike and BU then signals "Out" since the throw beat the runner.

3. I never heard of a situation where a BU is suppose to call the swing without any question being directed from the PU. That would be chaos.

4. The PU should have called (Verbally. not just not make a strike call) it a ball if he wasn't calling it a strike so that batter and catcher and his partner knew what the call was.

Mountaincoach Tue Jun 13, 2017 04:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by josephrt1 (Post 1006860)
Boy was i confused with some of these responses.

3. I never heard of a situation where a BU is suppose to call the swing without any question being directed from the PU. That would be chaos.


From the MLB Umpire Manual

8.7 "VOLUNTARY STRIKE"
In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter-runner is entitled to run to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate base umpire should immediately and voluntarily make a call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire's call. This will give the batter the immediate opportunity to run.

On the contrary, this actually keeps the "chaos" you mentioned from happening and gives the batter a chance to advance. I'll let you umpires decide if that applies to the various divisions of softball, but I didn't just dream that up.

teebob21 Tue Jun 13, 2017 06:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountaincoach (Post 1006863)
From the MLB Umpire Manual

8.7 "VOLUNTARY STRIKE"
In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter-runner is entitled to run to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate base umpire should immediately and voluntarily make a call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire's call. This will give the batter the immediate opportunity to run.

On the contrary, this actually keeps the "chaos" you mentioned from happening and gives the batter a chance to advance. I'll let you umpires decide if that applies to the various divisions of softball, but I didn't just dream that up.

This is the "advanced" mechanic I referred to earlier...it's more of a baseball thing (as shown by the MLB manual quoted above), but it's not something I do. It's super late here...I will post responses to joseph's questions tomorrow.

EsqUmp Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006848)
I am utterly confused.
Why is the first baseman(F3) deciding whether or not the batter went?
In any case this is an example of bad umpire mechanics.
The PU should have immediately stated "Yes she did" or "No she didn't"
If it is the former and If I were the PU I will then give a safe signal and verbilize "No Catch"
Now that my job is completed the players should know what to do.

As the plate umpire, you do not say, "No she didn't." You simply call it a ball.

EsqUmp Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountaincoach (Post 1006863)
From the MLB Umpire Manual

8.7 "VOLUNTARY STRIKE"
In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter-runner is entitled to run to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate base umpire should immediately and voluntarily make a call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire's call. This will give the batter the immediate opportunity to run.

On the contrary, this actually keeps the "chaos" you mentioned from happening and gives the batter a chance to advance. I'll let you umpires decide if that applies to the various divisions of softball, but I didn't just dream that up.

At the pro level, this works. I'm scared to think what base umpires will start doing at the amateur level though.

Mountaincoach Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 1006877)
At the pro level, this works. I'm scared to think what base umpires will start doing at the amateur level though.

LOL. Very good point. The police would probably be involved before the dust settled.

MT 73 Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 1006876)
As the plate umpire, you do not say, "No she didn't." You simply call it a ball.

I like to do preventative umpiring and in this case I want all to know that I acknowledge the checked swing and felt that she/ he held up.
It is similar to giving a safe signal with a verbal "That's nothing" when appropriate.
I am sure that my doing so, even if not the approved mechanic, will not cause the world to end.

CecilOne Tue Jun 13, 2017 09:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006879)
I like to do preventative umpiring and in this case I want all to know that I acknowledge the checked swing and felt that she/ he held up.

"Ball" == " I acknowledge the checked swing and felt that she/ he held up"

CecilOne Tue Jun 13, 2017 09:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006879)
It is similar to giving a safe signal with a verbal "That's nothing" when appropriate.

"Safe" == "That's nothing" and is acceptable for umpires.

EsqUmp Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006879)
I like to do preventative umpiring and in this case I want all to know that I acknowledge the checked swing and felt that she/ he held up.

It is similar to giving a safe signal with a verbal "That's nothing" when appropriate.

I am sure that my doing so, even if not the approved mechanic, will not cause the world to end.



It will cause a problem when you are required to go on a checked swing and your partner says she swung. This has nothing to do with preventative umpiring.


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