The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 04:07pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 5,916
today's OBS

On next field:

Runners on 1st & 2nd, deep base hit to left.
R1 rounds 3rd, collides with F5, knocked down and stays down.
R2 rounds 3rd, passes R1 and scores.
BR/R3 reaches 3rd safely, with ball thrown to 3rd then pitcher.

Ruling.
R1 scores as judged to reach home of not OBS.
R2 scores on OBS runner exception.

Comments?
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 04:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 185
Sounds right.
Awards are based on what would have happened if the obstruction had not occurred.
What we have is a triple and without the obstruction both runners would have scored.
Otherwise the runner who was on first would have to be called out for passing.

Last edited by MT 73; Sun Jun 04, 2017 at 07:10pm.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 06:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 540
Nailed it. A runner cannot be called out for passing an obstructed preceding runner.
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: NCAA D1 postseason/ISF Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity
2016 Game Counts -- Travel Ball: 57 | Juco: 32 | HS: 14 | NAIA: 10 | NCAA: 5 | NCAA Fall Ball: 12 | Camp: 5 | Three-man: 30 | EJ's: 1

2017 Game Counts -- Travel Ball: 37 | Juco: 34 | HS: 18 | NCAA: 2 | Fall Ball: 14 | Camp: 3 | Three-man: 26 | EJ's: 1
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 07:17pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
Nailed it. A runner cannot be called out for passing an obstructed preceding runner.
I hate that interpretation
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 08:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
I hate that interpretation
Speaking NFHS, it's not an interp, it's a rule. 8-8-17

Can you clarify what you don't like about it? I think it's fair. If runners were called out for passing leading obstructed runners, obstruction on the lead runner would become a valid defensive tactic on any extra base hit with runners on base, and would create additional confusion for the offense.
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: NCAA D1 postseason/ISF Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity
2016 Game Counts -- Travel Ball: 57 | Juco: 32 | HS: 14 | NAIA: 10 | NCAA: 5 | NCAA Fall Ball: 12 | Camp: 5 | Three-man: 30 | EJ's: 1

2017 Game Counts -- Travel Ball: 37 | Juco: 34 | HS: 18 | NCAA: 2 | Fall Ball: 14 | Camp: 3 | Three-man: 26 | EJ's: 1
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 08:55pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 90
I assume y'all are talking FED rules because you seem convinced a runner can pass an obstructed runner without penalty. (I think that is the case in HS but i dont do HS anymore and too laze to pull out the books.) But in USA/ASA that is not the case. If a runner passes another runner, they are out, even if the preceding runner was obstructed. ASA presented a case play on this back in March 2016. The case is below. However, in this case, even though the runner was called out for passing the obstructed runner, the situation was rectified in the final ruling. Here is the case play:


Plays and Rulings: Mar 2016
Play: R1 is on 1B with two outs. B4 hits the ball to the outfield and it rolls past the outfielders to the fence. R1 rounds 2B and is obstructed by F6 and goes down to the ground unable to resume running the bases. Obstruction was called. B4 passes R1 and is thrown out at the plate for the third out. No ruling was made until the out was made at the plate.
Ruling: When R1 was obstructed the umpire would signal delayed dead ball. There are two possible rulings.
• One: If R1 is passed before the umpire can signal dead ball due to an injured player, then once B4 passed R1 time should have been called since this was now the third out. Rule 8, Section 7D Effect 2. We should then enforce the obstruction and award the bases the runner and batter-runner would have reached had there been no obstruction.
• Two: If the umpire determined R1 was injured and, in the umpire’s judgement, requires immediate attention prior to B4 passing the runner, the umpire should have called Dead Ball and awarded the injured player and all other runners the base they would have reached in their judgement. Rule 4, Section 10.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 09:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,181
It's simply a long way processing through the rule to end up with the runner can't actually be out for passing an obstructed runner. Yes, by rule the runner is out for passing but then you have to fix it so the runner really wasn't out after all.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 11:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 185
It is very simple--what would have happened had obstruction not occurred?
A triple and 2 runs score.
So fix it.
Are you going to reward the defense for screwing up?
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 05, 2017, 08:49am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
Speaking NFHS, it's not an interp, it's a rule. 8-8-17

Can you clarify what you don't like about it? I think it's fair. If runners were called out for passing leading obstructed runners, obstruction on the lead runner would become a valid defensive tactic on any extra base hit with runners on base, and would create additional confusion for the offense.
This was not a NFHS game. Not sure which rule set, but HS ball in Cecil's area finished a week ago.

I believe the interpretation for ASA came out around 2013.

The rule has always allowed for an award to any other runner affected by an OBS. IOW, if the runner checked up and did not pass the OBS runner, s/he would still be awarded the bases due had the OBS not taken place. However, it was done without another rule violation taking place. Using it as a strategy and then arguing about it would/should only get the coach ejected and runners still awarded the appropriate base(s). This was just as fair

When this was first raised, I saw this as an indictment of the officials that collectively could not or would not do their job.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 05, 2017, 08:54am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
It's simply a long way processing through the rule to end up with the runner can't actually be out for passing an obstructed runner. Yes, by rule the runner is out for passing but then you have to fix it so the runner really wasn't out after all.
But what if the OBS has run out of protection when passed?
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 05, 2017, 09:00am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
But what if the OBS has run out of protection when passed?
Then they arent an obstructed runner any more.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 05, 2017, 09:43am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 5,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
This was not a NFHS game. Not sure which rule set, but HS ball in Cecil's area finished a week ago.

However, it was done without another rule violation taking place.
USA rules.
The rule violation was not by the obstructed runner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
When this was first raised, I saw this as an indictment of the officials that collectively could not or would not do their job.
I hope you mean that generically and historically, not the OP umpires.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 05, 2017, 09:49am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 5,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by josephrt1 View Post
• One: If R1 is passed before the umpire can signal dead ball due to an injured player, then once B4 passed R1 time should have been called since this was now the third out. Rule 8, Section 7D Effect 2. We should then enforce the obstruction and award the bases the runner and batter-runner would have reached had there been no obstruction.
Both the rule and the RS say the ball remains live on this type of out.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 05, 2017, 10:13am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Both the rule and the RS say the ball remains live on this type of out.
Except in the example given the runner passing the obstructed runner was the third out so the ball becomes dead in this specific example.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 06, 2017, 09:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
USA rules.
The rule violation was not by the obstructed runner.
The first violation WAS the obstruction, the second would be the passing by a trailing runner.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Today We Will Not . . . Freddy Basketball 27 Tue Jan 24, 2012 06:11pm
Saw this today... GarthB Baseball 25 Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:30am
Today brandan89 Basketball 20 Tue Nov 30, 2004 03:39pm
Saw this one today YoungRighty Baseball 3 Sat Aug 07, 2004 07:49pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:49am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1