Saw this today...

[GarthB]

at a 17U tournament being conducted under FED rules.

Batting order:

1. Adam
2. Bob
3. Charles
4. David as the DH batting for the pitcher, Zack

First inning, Charles was ejected for dropping an F bomb on the plate umpire after a called third strike for the third out.

A bit later in the game, it becomes apparent that the manager inserted Zak, the pitcher, for whom David was DH'ing in the three spot. The DH remains batting in the four spot.

Zak bats in the three spot in the third inning and not a word from anyone.

Zak begins to bat in the three spot in the sixth inning and the opposing coach complains. At the time of the complaint, Zak has a 1-1 count.

[mbyron]

I don't understand. Where was the sub for Charles batting? I suppose the coach wanted to DH for the sub and move Zak to the 3-spot. No can do, coach.

Ordinarily, at the time BOO was discovered I should think that Zak is an improper batter, and that the sub for Charles should come up with Zak's 1-1 count. Zak would be the next batter, and the DH role is eliminated for the remainder of the game.

Sneaky rat, but I don't see any outs here.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I don't understand. Where was the sub for Charles batting? I suppose the coach wanted to DH for the sub and move Zak to the 3-spot. No can do, coach.

Ordinarily, at the time BOO was discovered I should think that Zak is an improper batter, and that the sub for Charles should come up with Zak's 1-1 count. Zak would be the next batter, and the DH role is eliminated for the remainder of the game.

Sneaky rat, but I don't see any outs here.

There's no BOO, it's an illegal sub. 2-36-3d.

Zak (the illegal sub) is out and restricted to the dugout. 3-1-1

David bats next (unless Zak's out was the third out) and a new player enters the lineup in the thrid spot (formerly occupied by Charles).

[mbyron]

OK, thanks for the correction, Bob.

What do we do about the guy who replaced Charles and who has not batted yet? And do we still have a DH?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mbyron

OK, thanks for the correction, Bob.

What do we do about the guy who replaced Charles and who has not batted yet? And do we still have a DH?

Aye, there's the rub. The team had 10 players including the pitcher who was being Dh'ed for. There was no other player available and the coach thought he could enter the pitcher in Charles' spot in the batting order. The DH then took Charles' defensive position. Quite the screw up.

The umpires finally sorted it out, but only during Zak's second at bat.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Aye, there's the rub. The team had 10 players including the pitcher who was being Dh'ed for. There was no other player available and the coach thought he could enter the pitcher in Charles' spot in the batting order. The DH then took Charles' defensive position. Quite the screw up.

The umpires finally sorted it out, but only during Zak's second at bat.

There are a couple of options here, depending on the circumstances. If Charles is still at the game, he can reenter, since he's a starter. If he's no longer at the game, or is injured (or similar), then the team can play with 8 and tak an out each time this spot comes up in the order.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There are a couple of options here, depending on the circumstances. If Charles is still at the game, he can reenter, since he's a starter. If he's no longer at the game, or is injured (or similar), then the team can play with 8 and tak an out each time this spot comes up in the order.

Charles was gone. They went with 8.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There are a couple of options here, depending on the circumstances. If Charles is still at the game, he can reenter, since he's a starter. If he's no longer at the game, or is injured (or similar), then the team can play with 8 and tak an out each time this spot comes up in the order.

I thought they had a new rule about 8 or 90 years ago that said ejected players couldn't reenter. Maybe it's just me...

[TussAgee11]

I also had BOO of order yesterday, and it was the offensive team that pointed it out! 2-0 Count, and the coach from the dugout with the book starts screaming TIME! He calls me over and says they batted out of order. I looked at the book, and brought the correct batter to the plate. I'm thinking, wow, smart coach because he knows it can't be an OUT until after the AB.

Then he says "so that's an out right?"

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by GarthB

at a 17U tournament being conducted under FED rules.

Batting order:

1. Adam
2. Bob
3. Charles
4. David as the DH batting for the pitcher, Zack

First inning, Charles was ejected for dropping an F bomb on the plate umpire after a called third strike for the third out.

A bit later in the game, it becomes apparent that the manager inserted Zak, the pitcher, for whom David was DH'ing in the three spot. The DH remains batting in the four spot.

Zak bats in the three spot in the third inning and not a word from anyone.

Zak begins to bat in the three spot in the sixth inning and the opposing coach complains. At the time of the complaint, Zak has a 1-1 count.

David is DHing for Zak, the pitcher. David and Zak are locked into the same spot in the batting order. When Zak enters the game as a batter, he MUST do so in the 4-spot in the batting order, which means David is no longer in the game (but may return, but only in the 4-spot, and for Zak). When Zak, the defensive player who was DHed for, enters the game on offense, there is no longer a DH.

If Zak bats in the 3-spot, he's BOO.

Bob

[TwoBits]

I had a similar situation last week. NBC rules, DH came in to play catcher, and a new pitcher came in to bat for himself in the previous catcher's batting position.

OBR 6.10(b) states:
...The designated hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player, unless more than one substitution is made, and the manager then must designate their spots in the batting order.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

David is DHing for Zak, the pitcher. David and Zak are locked into the same spot in the batting order. When Zak enters the game as a batter, he MUST do so in the 4-spot in the batting order, which means David is no longer in the game (but may return, but only in the 4-spot, and for Zak). When Zak, the defensive player who was DHed for, enters the game on offense, there is no longer a DH.

If Zak bats in the 3-spot, he's BOO.

Bob

I think Bob explained your error best. Illegal Substitution.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I think Bob explained your error best. Illegal Substitution.

I seem to be in the minority here. Can someone explain why 6.10(b) doesn't apply here?

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

I seem to be in the minority here. Can someone explain why 6.10(b) doesn't apply here?

1st line of the OP: FED Rules.

[LakeErieUmp]

OK, I'm missing something here. Zack was already in the game, batting in the four-spot wtih David DHing for him. When Zack goes to bat in the three-hole he's BOO. How can he be an illegal substitute when he's already in the game defensively before he bats?

David, on the other hand, was removed as DH once Zak batted (third, fourth, wherever). When David stepped into the batter's box as a removed DH wasn't David the illegal substitute?

From there I have two further questions (and I don't have my FED books anymore as I've been out of FED for a couple years so I'm really looking for guidance on this):

1) Is David locked in as DH since Charles was the third out and David had not actually batted? If David is locked in as DH then I don't see how he's not the illegal substitute

2) Because Zack batted out of order in the third isn't that batting order now conceded because the defense did not notice at the time? That is, doesn't Zack have to continue to bat third?

3) If David was not locked in as DH (just for conversation's sake) then he can go in on defense for Charles and bat in Charles' spot. Just as (2) above then doesn't David (if he's allowed on defense) assume the fourth spot and there's no BOO, illegal substitute, or anything else?

Oh I wish my ex-witch hadn't tossed my old FED books!