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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 06:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 View Post
Only the head coach is permitted to approach an umpire.
Assistants are to be seen and not heard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 View Post
My HS association only allows captains and head coaches at the pregame conference....
Those aren't the same thing.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 06:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 View Post
My HS association only allows captains and head coaches at the pregame conference.
If as a coach you refused to accept this or ANY other of my directions you would be dumped and reported.
Report away. During the hearing, I would simply ask what provides you with such authority. Is there a rule specifically supporting your direction that you will only deal with HC?

In ASA/USA, the book specifically states that a coach is there to represent their team. No specific coach, any coach even a player/coach. How can a coach represent the team and players if the umpire refuses to entertain any questions or discussion?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 09:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 View Post
My HS association only allows captains and head coaches at the pregame conference.
I wonder why? It is true that by rule only the team's head coach can verify the lineup card, acknowledge that his/her players are properly and legally equipped, and that players and equipment are in compliance with NFHS rules. But that doesn't mean an assistant coach cannot attend the plate conference with the head coach. Does your association find something improper with assistant coaches attending the conference? Some of those assistants are going to be head coaches at some point, so why not let them attend and learn?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2017, 11:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
I wonder why? It is true that by rule only the team's head coach can verify the lineup card, acknowledge that his/her players are properly and legally equipped, and that players and equipment are in compliance with NFHS rules. But that doesn't mean an assistant coach cannot attend the plate conference with the head coach. Does your association find something improper with assistant coaches attending the conference? Some of those assistants are going to be head coaches at some point, so why not let them attend and learn?
Quite frankly I never gave it much thought as to why.
And in 6 years of umpiring NYC HS I have never had an assistant coach even try to come out for a conference.
Heck, 70% of the teams do not even have an assistant coach.
To repeat, I wil not just remain mute if a coach has a legitimate question or seeks a ruling in a respectful manner.
And if an assistant coach is on first base and claims that F3 was off the bag I will react s if the manager made such a request.
But I will NOT give the same leeway to an assistant as I would to the head coach because they are not in charge of the team.
The only time that I ejected an assistant ( it was during the summer travel season) was when a scorekeeper came out to question a tag play.
After I explained to him the runner got under the tag he rolled his eyes and tossed his clipboard into the air.
I waited until he picked it up and then tossed him.

Last edited by MT 73; Mon Jun 05, 2017 at 12:12am.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 05, 2017, 05:19am
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NFHS Baseball
RULE 1
SECTION 1
ARTICLE 2 . . . The captain and head coach represent the team in communications with umpires. The captain's and head coach’s duties shall include: 1) providing the umpire-in-chief with his team's lineup card which shall include the name, shirt number, position and batting order of each starting player, the name and shirt number of each eligible substitute should also be listed; and 2) informing all players as to special ground rules as announced by the umpire-in-chief. Lineups become official after they have been exchanged, verified and then accepted by the umpire during the pregame conference. The umpire shall not accept the lineup card until all substitutes are listed. There is no penalty assessed.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 05, 2017, 08:30am
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MT73:
It is not in the rules but is accepted practice.
Since you hear this over and over again perhaps this should have sunk in by now.
If you guys want to take crap from an assistant coach or a score keeper be my guest.
I suppose you also allow assistants at your pre game plate conference?




NCAA and USSSA do not require that the head coach attend the pregame meeting, only that a member of the coaching staff attend. What would you do? Refuse to talk to them and insist that the head coach must attend?
Based on what? Your accepted practice?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 05, 2017, 09:26am
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This is what happens when you officiate in a bubble and don't see the world when umpiring. You don't learn any better until you hear something new, often because you just accept what people tell you without actually considering it. Then an "outsider" makes a statement and everyone is wrong and you are right.

I have head coaches who never coach bases. If there's a question about a pulled foot at 1st base, I'd be a fool not to converse with the 1st base coach.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 05, 2017, 09:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colo Blue View Post
MT73:
It is not in the rules but is accepted practice.
Since you hear this over and over again perhaps this should have sunk in by now.
If you guys want to take crap from an assistant coach or a score keeper be my guest.
I suppose you also allow assistants at your pre game plate conference?




NCAA and USSSA do not require that the head coach attend the pregame meeting, only that a member of the coaching staff attend. What would you do? Refuse to talk to them and insist that the head coach must attend?
Based on what? Your accepted practice?
I do not do not do NCAA or USSSA.
I only do USA for both HS and summer travel.
If the rules stated that the head coach does not have to attend the conference then why would I insist otherwise?
My association only wants the head coach and captains to attend the conference so why would I go against that?
And for crying out loud, how many times have I stated that I WILL--and have many times--communicate with an assistant if they do so in a respectful manner?
Talk about being in a bubble...
But you guys are correct---I mainly do baseball and under OBR--(and, thanks to Illinoisblue I see the same is true for NFHS baseball.) I was taught correctly who can and cannot communicate with an umpire.
I did go back and check my 2017 USA rulebook and I see that IrishMafia is correct about coaches--any coach--being able to communicate with and umpire so I will change my habits during the summer travel season.
Thanks to all for an informative and spirited debate.

Last edited by MT 73; Mon Jun 05, 2017 at 10:01am.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 06, 2017, 08:28pm
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Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
Thought you didn't work high school?
If I recall correctly, New York HS doesn't play under Fed rules. EsqUmp or someone else closer to knowing how that works could explain further.

Edit - Aw crap I am replying to a page 1 comment on Page 2. Ignore me.

Edit 2: Ah hell, I will chime in. One of the organizations I work for has a semi-unwritten rule of "Assistants are to be seen and not heard." By semi-unwritten, I mean those words have come out of the rep's mouth at the umpire meeting, but you won't see it in any rulebook or manual. I have also heard, on several occasions, from good umpires: "Why were you discussing it with an assistant coach?" IMO, assistants are team personnel and they are free to talk to me. They get a little more rope than a player, and a lot less than the HC.
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2016 Game Counts -- Travel Ball: 57 | Juco: 32 | HS: 14 | NAIA: 10 | NCAA: 5 | NCAA Fall Ball: 12 | Camp: 5 | Three-man: 30 | EJ's: 1

2017 Game Counts -- Travel Ball: 34 | Juco: 32 | HS: 14 | NCAA: 2 | Three-man: 20 | EJ's: 1

Last edited by teebob21; Tue Jun 06, 2017 at 08:33pm.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 06, 2017, 10:15pm
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Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
If I recall correctly, New York HS doesn't play under Fed rules. EsqUmp or someone else closer to knowing how that works could explain further.

Edit - Aw crap I am replying to a page 1 comment on Page 2. Ignore me.

Edit 2: Ah hell, I will chime in. One of the organizations I work for has a semi-unwritten rule of "Assistants are to be seen and not heard." By semi-unwritten, I mean those words have come out of the rep's mouth at the umpire meeting, but you won't see it in any rulebook or manual. I have also heard, on several occasions, from good umpires: "Why were you discussing it with an assistant coach?" IMO, assistants are team personnel and they are free to talk to me. They get a little more rope than a player, and a lot less than the HC.
NYS plays under USA but uses some NFHS rules.
In NYC we go strictly under USA with one exception--we do not have a penalty for an unreported sub.
Your last sentence is exactly what I was trying to convey.
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