Erroneous foul ball call

[IRISHMAFIA]

[QUOTE=Andy;1005319]

Originally Posted by robbie

Why?

Because it is a lie.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Since we are telling stories of foul to fair

About 10 years ago, state tournament, there was a runner on 2nd and the batter hit a ball toward RCF. PU lost the ball for some reason and came up with a big "FOUL BALL". Well, Stevie Wonder was there and even he said, "That is some bad calling", somebody get the UIC.

The UIC awarded the BR 1B, but kept R1 on 2B. Yes, it is a compromise, but the fairest option available.

When the play was pushed up the chain to member of Nat Staff (without the applied resolution), his response was,"That's easy, place the batter on 1st and only push runners who are forced."

That is why UICs get the big bucks!

[MT 73]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

But as offered in the conversation, it was not a judgment call as the umpire admits the batted ball qualified as a fair ball.

Yes, maybe it was a brain fart, but I believe it to be a misinterpretation and that is protestable

Judgment calls cannot be protested.
And, as stated in the rule book, that includes fair/foul calls.
Life can be unfair at times.
No pun intended.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by MT 73

Judgment calls cannot be protested.
And, as stated in the rule book, that includes fair/foul calls.
Life can be unfair at times.
No pun intended.

If you judged the ball to have come to rest in foul territory that would be right. But you didn't. You might have temporarily done that but in retrospect you know that's wrong. So when the coach asks you where the ball was, you're going to say it was in fair territory. Now we have to make a ruling.
As I've said around here if you ruled that you could clean it up, I've heard you'd lose that protest (though I don't know for sure). As noted, in other places, you'd better rule you can clean it up or you'll lost that protest.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Andy

Once the ball is called foul, that bell should not be unrung.....

The problem with this play is....how do you "fix" it? You can't assume that the defense would have pounced on the ball and made an out and you can't assume that the BR would have made it safely to first. No pitch is not an option.

It wasn't specified which rule set, but in NCAA, you CANNOT, by rule, change this to a fair ball.

Here is a play I had as a UIC from a few years ago....

ASA (at the time) rules, 3 umpire crew, no runners on, less than two strikes on the batter.

Pitch comes in, batter hits a ground ball to F5 playing in front of third base, ball rolls under F5's glove and goes foul prior to passing third base. PU rules foul ball. Offensive coach comes to PU and states that F5 touched the ball in fair territory and asks PU to check with his partners. PU gets crew together and U3 tells PU that the ball was touched in fair territory by F5. PU changes call to fair ball and placed the BR on first base. Defensive coach wants to protest, I am summoned to the field, get the story from the crew and talk to the defensive coach. I do not allow the protest since it was a reversal of a judgement call which is not subject to protest. Post game with crew was that PU should have told Offensive coach that he saw all he needed to and that the foul ball call stands.

But, your example is of a wrong judgment call. The facts are in dispute (did the fielder touch the ball... PU's judgment was no.)

The OP's situation is a misapplication of the rule call (definition of foul ball).

In the OP's situation, none of the facts are disputed. The ball was a fair ball than was inadvertently called foul, not a poorly judged foul.

It was an incorrectly called foul ball.

[MT 73]

Originally Posted by Dakota

But, your example is of a wrong judgment call. The facts are in dispute (did the fielder touch the ball... PU's judgment was no.)

The OP's situation is a misapplication of the rule call (definition of foul ball).

In the OP's situation, none of the facts are disputed. The ball was a fair ball than was inadvertently called foul, not a poorly judged foul.

It was an incorrectly called foul ball.

He did not misapply a rule--he blew a judgement call.
Big difference.
Are you willing to put up a $500 protest fee to have this decided?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Since we are telling stories of foul to fair

About 10 years ago, state tournament, there was a runner on 2nd and the batter hit a ball toward RCF. PU lost the ball for some reason and came up with a big "FOUL BALL". Well, Stevie Wonder was there and even he said, "That is some bad calling", somebody get the UIC.

The UIC awarded the BR 1B, but kept R1 on 2B. Yes, it is a compromise, but the fairest option available.

When the play was pushed up the chain to member of Nat Staff (without the applied resolution), his response was,"That's easy, place the batter on 1st and only push runners who are forced."

That is why UICs get the big bucks!

The direction I got from NUS members was that I, as the UIC, should have overturned the overturn and left the ball foul....

When I asked by what rule I could do that, I was given the answer that once a ball is called foul, we don't make it fair.

[UmpireErnie]

I've heard from a number of clinicians over the years that "foul ball" call is basically a bell that can't be unrung. It's a foul ball get back in the box and hit.

[MT 73]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

I've heard from a number of clinicians over the years that "foul ball" call is basically a bell that can't be unrung. It's a foul ball get back in the box and hit.

Amen.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MT 73

He did not misapply a rule--he blew a judgement call.
Big difference.
Are you willing to put up a $500 protest fee to have this decided?

No need for the snark.

What was his judgment? If a batter is trying to avoid getting hit and accidentally hits a batted ball into fair territory, it is a foul ball? That is a misapplication of a rule.

Or, since the OP says "Of course, this is an oops..." that the PU's judgment was "oops"?

He called foul apparently not because of an error in judgment, but because of an error in opening his mouth.

Any protest would face an uphill climb, but this is not a discussion about "what you you do if you were on the protest committee?", but, what should the umpire do?

I generally agree with the "eat the call" position; I was just pointing out that Andy's situation was different in that there really was an error in judgment in his situation.

[Colo Blue]

Once you call it a foul ball it must stay a foul ball. You will have to eat crow and hopefully not have to eject a coach. You may have to be apologetic and give the coach a little latitude. This is poor judgment and not protestable.

In the NCAA rule 11.5 Note it says: A batted ball declared foul cannot be changed to fair regardless of additional information that might be made available to the calling umpire.

So if you change the call to fair you are now entering into a protestable call. Of course the protest should not happen because you and your partners have the ability to pull out the rulebook, and therefore will not overturn the foul call.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by Colo Blue

Once you call it a foul ball it must stay a foul ball. You will have to eat crow and hopefully not have to eject a coach. You may have to be apologetic and give the coach a little latitude. This is poor judgment and not protestable.

In the NCAA rule 11.5 Note it says: A batted ball declared foul cannot be changed to fair regardless of additional information that might be made available to the calling umpire.

So if you change the call to fair you are now entering into a protestable call. Of course the protest should not happen because you and your partners have the ability to pull out the rulebook, and therefore will not overturn the foul call.

Yes, the NCAA rule book does address it and says it cannot be changed. No other softball rule set I am aware of has the same rule so you cant say it is a rule in any other rule set a foul cannot be changed to fair.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Colo Blue

So if you change the call to fair you are now entering into a protestable call. Of course the protest should not happen because you and your partners have the ability to pull out the rulebook, and therefore will not overturn the foul call.

To pick a nit, in NCAA, using proper protest procedure you don't pull out the rulebook until after the protest is lodged on the field, and the protesting coach shows/tells you which rule is being protested.

And hopefully, at that level, you know that a foul ball cannot be undone...but we all forget things from time to time, so it could happen.

[Colo Blue]

True. Consider the Nit Picked.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

The direction I got from NUS members was that I, as the UIC, should have overturned the overturn and left the ball foul....

When I asked by what rule I could do that, I was given the answer that once a ball is called foul, we don't make it fair.

IOW, s/he couldn't provide you with a valid response. IMO, it is a cop-out. We are not talking about something close to the line, not even remotely. And it ceases to become judgment when an umpire acknowledges that the batted ball did, by rule, qualify as a fair ball. Not much different than an umpire calling "foul on a batted ball that hits a base. The rule book specifically states this is a fair ball, no judgment involved.

Maybe this is because I was trained by people who were more interested in getting it right instead of looking for a way out.