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Old Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:10am
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IP w/o Pitch

Alright, I'm still having some difficulty with the wording in the rule books where it says if the pitcher commits an illegal pitch without the pitch being delivered, it's an immediate dead ball. The mixed interpretations I'm hearing are these:

1. If the pitcher commits the IP before she starts her delivery, kill it and announce the IP and penalty.

2. If the pitcher commits the IP you signal a DDB and wait until she aborts from pitching, then you kill it and announce the IP and penalty.

So, take for example, a pitcher who licks her fingers and then fails to wipe before she touches the ball while she's walking up to get on the plate. Those who advocate "1" above would say you kill play immediately, and then make the announcement/award. Those who believe "2" is correct will tell you to call the IP when it happens, but not kill it until it's clear the pitcher isn't going to pitch (e.g., she stops short of the plate and asks, "What did I do?")

What about this one: While the pitcher is off the plate, she gets a verbal signal from the coach, looks at her armband for the correct pitch selection, then steps on the plate and immediately puts her hands together without looking in for the signal from the catcher. Those who believe "1" is correct would have the PU immediately call Dead Ball, but "2" would say to not kill it until she steps back off the plate.

Personally, I'm with "1". I'm going to kill it immediately unless the IP happens during the actual pitch delivery (e.g., double-touch, start-stop-start, leap, crow-hop, violation of the 24 inches, etc.) Is that correct?
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Old Mon Mar 20, 2017, 08:27am
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Our state rules interpreter says it is a delayed dead ball and it only becomes dead immediately when the pitcher chooses not to deliver the pitch.

This is something someone with ties to the national office needs to kick up for an interpretation because the rule book does seem to conflict.
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Old Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
Alright, I'm still having some difficulty with the wording in the rule books where it says if the pitcher commits an illegal pitch without the pitch being delivered, it's an immediate dead ball. The mixed interpretations I'm hearing are these:

1. If the pitcher commits the IP before she starts her delivery, kill it and announce the IP and penalty.

2. If the pitcher commits the IP you signal a DDB and wait until she aborts from pitching, then you kill it and announce the IP and penalty.

So, take for example, a pitcher who licks her fingers and then fails to wipe before she touches the ball while she's walking up to get on the plate. Those who advocate "1" above would say you kill play immediately, and then make the announcement/award. Those who believe "2" is correct will tell you to call the IP when it happens, but not kill it until it's clear the pitcher isn't going to pitch (e.g., she stops short of the plate and asks, "What did I do?")

What about this one: While the pitcher is off the plate, she gets a verbal signal from the coach, looks at her armband for the correct pitch selection, then steps on the plate and immediately puts her hands together without looking in for the signal from the catcher. Those who believe "1" is correct would have the PU immediately call Dead Ball, but "2" would say to not kill it until she steps back off the plate.

Personally, I'm with "1". I'm going to kill it immediately unless the IP happens during the actual pitch delivery (e.g., double-touch, start-stop-start, leap, crow-hop, violation of the 24 inches, etc.) Is that correct?
"If an illegal pitch occurs but the pitch is not released, it is a dead ball." NCAA 10.8 Effect

This is a common if/then statement; logic doesn't extend to the opposite sequence. When the pitch IS released, the offense has an option available.

Your version (#2) not only takes the if/then statement out of sequence by killing the play because YOU have decided the pitch shouldn't be released, but it also denies the offense a possibly beneficial option. I do not see any rule support for declaring anything but "illegal pitch" and a delayed dead ball.

Personally, the only time I would declare an immediate dead ball without waiting to see what the pitcher does is when the pitcher defaces the ball or applies a foreign substance; those are instances where completion may result in harm to a player from the altered ball condition, and that ball needs to be removed from play as soon as possible.

Can anyone quote rulebook language in any major set that says differently?
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Old Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:48am
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The point of an IP is to not disadvantage the batter; that is why IP are DDB; allowing the batter to hit (or ...) the pitch. So, why kill a pitch prematurely?


caveat: I don't care about NCAA
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Old Mon Mar 20, 2017, 11:37am
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The point of an IP is to not disadvantage the batter; that is why IP are DDB; allowing the batter to hit (or ...) the pitch. So, why kill a pitch prematurely?
NFHS Rule 5-1-1p says the ball becomes dead immediately when "an illegal pitch occurs, but no pitch is delivered to the batter." That would imply to me that certain IP violations are killed as soon as they happen. But I guess I'm wrong there.

And I realize that you don't care about the NCAA, but there is an approved ruling that has as its scenario a pitcher who licks her fingers after delivering Ball Four to the batter, and before the BR arrives at first base, she grabs the ball without wiping off. The ruling states that the umpire calls IP and makes the award of moving the BR to second, and adding a ball to the count on the next batter. There is no DDB to allow the next batter to get in the box and try to hit the pitch.
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Old Mon Mar 20, 2017, 03:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
NFHS Rule 5-1-1p says the ball becomes dead immediately when "an illegal pitch occurs, but no pitch is delivered to the batter." That would imply to me that certain IP violations are killed as soon as they happen. But I guess I'm wrong there.
What that is saying is, as with any illegal pitch you call it illegal when it becomes illegal. Calling the illegal pitch is signalling a delayed dead ball and saying illegal. IF the pitcher stops and backs off the pitching plate and does not throw a pitch, we do not have a stalemate and stand there with our left arm extended.....we then call a dead ball and enforce the illegal pitch penalty.

So one situation with two outcomes.

A pitcher steps onto the pitching plate with her hands together. This is an illegal pitch and the plate umpire signals delayed dead ball and verbalizes "illegal pitch" when the pitcher steps onto the pitching plate with their hands together. In a) the pitcher continues her preliminaries and delivers a pitch. In b) the pitcher stops her progression, steps back off the pitching plate and seperates her hands looking at the plate umpire.

In a) we allow the pitch to be delivered and the batter has the right to hit the ball, knowing it is an illegal pitch.

In b) it is obvious that the pitcher is not going to deliver a pitch so we would then call a dead ball and enforce the illegal pitch penalty.
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Old Mon Mar 20, 2017, 03:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
And I realize that you don't care about the NCAA, but there is an approved ruling that has as its scenario a pitcher who licks her fingers after delivering Ball Four to the batter, and before the BR arrives at first base, she grabs the ball without wiping off. The ruling states that the umpire calls IP and makes the award of moving the BR to second, and adding a ball to the count on the next batter. There is no DDB to allow the next batter to get in the box and try to hit the pitch.
An illegal pitch when there is not a pitch opportunity.
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Old Mon Mar 20, 2017, 07:23pm
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Throw out the already bantered Utrip exception for this discussion...

Speaking Fed, I've always been under the assumption that it's immediate deadball for things like licking fingers with no wipe, grinding the ball into the dirt, taking a nail file out and using it on the ball, etc. When that act takes place, the pitch doesn't take place.

Then there's the other category, the everything is OK until but there's the double touch, leap, stepping outside of the 24", etc. where the rules state that we have delayed dead ball giving the batter an opportunity to hit the ball.

I think Fed is pretty clear about what's what and when it's applied.
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Old Mon Mar 20, 2017, 09:26pm
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I think Dave has it right.

I'm trying to recall an IP that I called for a double touch that ended up with a pitch being delivered. I can't remember one.

When the IP is called, pitchers almost always stop their delivery. At that point, the call of a dead ball is appropriate.

IPs called with a pitch being made would more likely be a result of foot fouls. Those almost always result in a pitch being thrown. Sometimes, if called by the BU and the PU didn't hear the call, things can get a bit confusing. But just take the time and sort things out.
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