NFHS--Overrunning first

[fredhjr]

NFHS Rule 8.7.4 e--Although this is listed under the "Look-Back Rule", I assume it would be correct in any instance of overrunning first base? If so, I have never seen this rule enforced. Wonder if anyone else has? Or am I incorrect and this applies only when the pitcher has the ball in the circle?

[RKBUmp]

Not sure what violation you feel is not being enforced.

[BretMan]

It applies ONLY to the Look Back Rule (so, yes, the pitcher must have the ball in the circle...and all of the other requirements of the LBR must be met).

[Manny A]

If you mean that a BR who overruns first base, and turns around to her right to return to first, must continue to first base only while the ball is elsewhere other than in the pitcher's possession in the circle, the answer is No.

Say the BR does this after beating out the throw, and as she's returning to first, F3 makes an attempt to throw out a runner going home. The BR can certainly change course to head for second if she wants. She's not committed to returning to first base in that instant, so there is no violation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Manny A

If you mean that a BR who overruns first base, and turns around to her right to return to first, must continue to first base only while the ball is elsewhere other than in the pitcher's possession in the circle, the answer is No.

Say the BR does this after beating out the throw, and as she's returning to first, F3 makes an attempt to throw out a runner going home. The BR can certainly change course to head for second if she wants. She's not committed to returning to first base in that instant, so there is no violation.

Manny:

There is no requirement that she must turn to her right.

MTD, Sr.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Manny:

There is no requirement that she must turn to her right.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, I know that. But the OP asked specifically about NFHS rule 8-7-4e, which is the look-back scenario where a BR does turn to her right to return to first base, and whether or not her commitment to first base extends beyond just the look-back rule. That's why my answer addressed just turning right.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Mark, I know that. But the OP asked specifically about NFHS rule 8-7-4e, which is the look-back scenario where a BR does turn to her right to return to first base, and whether or not her commitment to first base extends beyond just the look-back rule. That's why my answer addressed just turning right.

Manny:

No where in the rule does it mention which way a runner must or should turn. You injected "turns to her right". Which way the runner turns to return to 1B has no bearing upon the rule and how it is applied. What is important with regard to the rule is after the runner has acquired 1B did she make an attempt to advance to 2B. Far too many coaches think that the runner simply turning to her left to return to 1B is an attempt to advance to 2B.

MTD, Sr.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Manny:

No where in the rule does it mention which way a runner must or should turn. You injected "turns to her right". Which way the runner turns to return to 1B has no bearing upon the rule and how it is applied. What is important with regard to the rule is after the runner has acquired 1B did she make an attempt to advance to 2B. Far too many coaches think that the runner simply turning to her left to return to 1B is an attempt to advance to 2B.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, I get all that, trust me. But please refer to the OP, where he essentially asks if NFHS 8-7-4e applies not only to the look-back rule, but anytime. This is what he asked:

NFHS Rule 8.7.4 e--Although this is listed under the "Look-Back Rule", I assume it would be correct in any instance of overrunning first base? If so, I have never seen this rule enforced. Wonder if anyone else has? Or am I incorrect and this applies only when the pitcher has the ball in the circle?

From the book:

ART. 4 . . . Responsibilities of batter-runner after completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has the ball within the 16-foot pitching circle, including a base on balls or a dropped third strike are as follows:
.
.
.
e. A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, and turns right, is committed to first base and must return to first base.

He wanted to specifically know if the BR must return to first base after overrunning the bag and turning right, outside of the requirement under the look-back. That's why my response was limited to the right turn scenario.

[fredhjr]

MANNY A, thanks for understanding the question and providing a good answer. When observing a player overrunning first base, I have not paid particular attention to whether or not the pitcher had the ball in the circle. Apparently, the only time the direction of the turn comes into play is under the "Look-Back" rule. Having said that, I do understand (or hope I do) that a player who makes an attempt to go to 2nd base (even if it is a feint) under circumstances other then "Look-Back" is liable to be put out if tagged with the ball by a defensive player.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by fredhjr

MANNY A, thanks for understanding the question and providing a good answer. When observing a player overrunning first base, I have not paid particular attention to whether or not the pitcher had the ball in the circle. Apparently, the only time the direction of the turn comes into play is under the "Look-Back" rule. Having said that, I do understand (or hope I do) that a player who makes an attempt to go to 2nd base (even if it is a feint) under circumstances other then "Look-Back" is liable to be put out if tagged with the ball by a defensive player.

You're putting far too much emphasis on the direction the runner turns. It's irrelevant. The only reason it's included in the description of this play is to make it clear the runner is returning to first and not making a play for 2nd. But direction doesn't matter and this case play would be the same if they turned left but proceeded directly toward 1st.

And NONE of this is relevant at all if LBR is not in play... so no one is ignoring this rule when LBR is not effect --- the rule is not in play if LBR is not in effect.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by fredhjr

MANNY A, thanks for understanding the question and providing a good answer. When observing a player overrunning first base, I have not paid particular attention to whether or not the pitcher had the ball in the circle.

Remember that all the examples cited in 8-7-4 are in effect only when the BR overruns first base and then turns AFTER the pitcher has the ball in the circle. Typically when the ball goes back to the circle, the BR has already turned around and is almost back to the bag. And besides that, I honestly cannot recall the last time I've ever seen a BR do anything but turn around and head back to first. But just in case, the BU has to watch for when the ball is in the circle, and then look to see what the BR is doing.

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You're putting far too much emphasis on the direction the runner turns. It's irrelevant. The only reason it's included in the description of this play is to make it clear the runner is returning to first and not making a play for 2nd. But direction doesn't matter and this case play would be the same if they turned left but proceeded directly toward 1st.

And NONE of this is relevant at all if LBR is not in play... so no one is ignoring this rule when LBR is not effect --- the rule is not in play if LBR is not in effect.

Mike I agree with Manny a specific rule was referenced and that rule only applies to the look back rule. If the batter/Runner over runs 1st base they have 2 options to return to 1st base one could possibly result in an out of course..

The first is turn right if they do this they are committed to return to first base unless the pitcher makes a play on any runner or laves the pitchers circle

The second is to turn to their left. If they choose to turn to the left with out attempting to go to 2nd base they may return to 1st base without liability to be put out. (we all know this would require the umpire to judge their was no attempt and could be a risky return)