when is it an appeal?

[CecilOne]

I know we have covered this before, but too many appeal topics to find what I wanted.

2 runners on, ball hit to deep outfield, both runners score. Throw is to shortstop, then pitcher in circle. No dead ball or time out.
All get set for next batter, but from dugout "throw to Hannah" (F5). Pitcher does so, no one says anything. PU steps out, watching.
Ball back to pitcher and play continues.

Please rule or comment:
1) if one of the runners missed 3rd, is that an appeal and an out?
2) if neither missed 3rd, is that an appeal and should the umpires say so?
3) R1 is PU resp., R2 is BU resp. because of R1 coming home

[Tru_in_Blu]

Doesn't sound like anyone asked for an appeal. Just throwing a ball to an infielder does not constitute an appeal.

If ASA, an infielder must request the appeal.

If NFHS, coach or infielder may appeal.

Throwing to and/or stepping on a base with the ball in possession is not necessary. Just ask.

We had our state tournament a couple of weeks ago. Defense thought a runner left early on a caught fly ball. Coach asked for time, approached PU to ask about an appeal. Since the runner started on first base, PU directed the coach to me. She asked me if the runner left early. I told her that this was not a legal appeal. She went back to the dugout confused. After the game, I discussed it with her and said if it was an NFHS game, her appeal would have been ruled on. But it was ASA. She said an umpire in a previous game in the tournament explained it differently. Can't attest to the veracity of that alleged conversation.

[teebob21]

The only appeal that does not require talking is a live-ball appeal, for example the appeal of a runner leaving a base before a fly ball is touched. A legal tag with the ball to the violating player, while the runner is still on the field is also a proper live-ball appeal. Again, proper live-ball appeals do not always require a verbal appeal, but they do require the ball. An example of where a verbal appeal needs to be made on a live-ball appeal is when, say, the BR misses 1B before the throw arrives, and F3 just stands there on the bag with the ball. Until F3 indicates an appeal to the umpire, this is not an appeal. An example of a live-ball appeal not needing a verbal: Play at the plate - runner misses the plate, F2 misses the tag. This is the classic "hesitation safe" signal. If F2 tags the plate, this is a live-ball appeal and should be ruled upon, even if she doesn't say anything. RS #1-I

Where this gets tricky is when the ball remains live, but a late appeal is made when the ball is already in the circle, such as in your example. 8-7-F/I Effect Part 3B & 3C covers this under the dead-ball section, making me think the intent is that appeals from the circle at the conclusion of play are to be treated as dead-ball appeals.

All dead-ball appeals require someone (depending on ruleset) to verbally specify to the umpire what they are appealing. RS #1-C-1. In ASA, any infielder (F1 through F6) may make an appeal, regardless of whether they have the ball or not.

A pitcher may throw to a base from the circle, but if she has already taken the pitching position, and throws while still in contact with the pitching plate with either foot, the throw is an illegal pitch and the live-ball appeal is cancelled. (ASA 6-8) A dead-ball appeal cannot then be made, as appeals must occur before the next pitch, legal or illegal.

In your example, because no one says anything, we do not have a proper dead-ball appeal. The umpire responsible for judging that base when the ball was live should not make a call.

This hinges on my interpretation of 8-7-F/I Effect. If I am wrong, and the appeal is in fact a live-ball appeal, then tagging the bag while in possession is a proper appeal.

[RKBUmp]

With multiple runners, someone has to tell the umpire what exactly they are appealing. If it isnt an obvious live ball appeal of a runner leaving a base early, then the umpire has no idea what runner they are appealing or for what infraction. There is nothing to rule on without an explanation of the throw to the base.

[jmkupka]

"An example of a live-ball appeal not needing a verbal: Play at the plate - runner misses the plate, F2 misses the tag."

Even in this case, we want to be sure of the appeal. If F2 slaps the ball/glove on the plate & holds it up to me, common sense will interpret that as "I missed tagging her, here's my appeal". If she stands up and happens to step on the corner of HP while throwing back to F1, nothing.

[AtlUmpSteve]

What everyone has stated is true. This does not meet the definition of an appeal. But I was taught we don't stop there.

The reason we accept live ball appeals that are clear is because we understand what they are doing; making a specific appeal. The reason softball has dead ball appeals (that baseball doesn't) is to eliminate the mystique surrounding the exact proper sequence to make an appeal.

Well, the same logic needs to apply to an effort to make an appeal. From the very beginning of the OP, everyone reading it, as well as the writer, understood the defensive team was (incorrectly)attempting to make an appeal. That should be enough to consider addressing the process.

The prior ASA NUS (I no longer can speak to what is being revised, reinterpreted, and relearned by the current regime, but this came from HP and MB) taught us that the way to handle this scenario was:

1) Call "Time" for them when you recognize what is being attempted.
2) Ask "What are trying to do?" If they say "Make an appeal" (you already knew that!!), you rule on it, if you can.
3) If insufficient information has been provided, you ask "What exactly are appealing?" If necessary, you even ask, "Which runner?", and/or "Which base?"

The appeal process, especially as done in the dead ball manner, is not supposed to require specific wording, a 3 step handshake, or even the antics the defense uses to tell each other how many outs there are. Find out what they are trying to do, and rule on it. If the offense left a base early, or missed a base, the defense deserves the proper result for making an appeal, not a run-round over the exact process.

Again, that was the HP and MB way, taught thru ~2005. I never heard it revised, as I attended National UIC Clinics thru ~2012.

[BlueDevilRef]

As Steve says, I always say " you have to be more specific". And I think it's ridiculous that ASA doesn't let coaches ask for all appeals. To me, it's just silly.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

What everyone has stated is true. This does not meet the definition of an appeal. But I was taught we don't stop there.

The reason we accept live ball appeals that are clear is because we understand what they are doing; making a specific appeal. The reason softball has dead ball appeals (that baseball doesn't) is to eliminate the mystique surrounding the exact proper sequence to make an appeal.

Well, the same logic needs to apply to an effort to make an appeal. From the very beginning of the OP, everyone reading it, as well as the writer, understood the defensive team was (incorrectly)attempting to make an appeal. That should be enough to consider addressing the process.

The prior ASA NUS (I no longer can speak to what is being revised, reinterpreted, and relearned by the current regime, but this came from HP and MB) taught us that the way to handle this scenario was:

1) Call "Time" for them when you recognize what is being attempted.
2) Ask "What are trying to do?" If they say "Make an appeal" (you already knew that!!), you rule on it, if you can.
3) If insufficient information has been provided, you ask "What exactly are appealing?" If necessary, you even ask, "Which runner?", and/or "Which base?"

The appeal process, especially as done in the dead ball manner, is not supposed to require specific wording, a 3 step handshake, or even the antics the defense uses to tell each other how many outs there are. Find out what they are trying to do, and rule on it. If the offense left a base early, or missed a base, the defense deserves the proper result for making an appeal, not a run-round over the exact process.

Again, that was the HP and MB way, taught thru ~2005. I never heard it revised, as I attended National UIC Clinics thru ~2012.

I can second this (once dead ball appeals were permitted), and it wasn't just HP & MB, but from any UIC with which I dealt

The reason coaches cannot make appeals is probably leftover from when the team had to make appeals during a live ball. That made for some real interesting plays in the SP game.

[CecilOne]

It looks like the consensus is that
- the team was attempting a live ball appeal;
- they did not complete a real appeal because they did not say so;
- that the umpires should have done more as described by Steve

"1) Call "Time" for them when you recognize what is being attempted.
2) Ask "What are trying to do?" If they say "Make an appeal" (you already knew that!!), you rule on it, if you can.
3) If insufficient information has been provided, you ask "What exactly are appealing?" If necessary, you even ask, "Which runner?", and/or "Which base?""


BTW, side conversations later:
- the catcher said they thought that R2 missed 3rd;
- the BU said R2 did touch 3rd