Is "go out, stay out" always cast in concrete?

[Dakota]

3 umpire game. Runners on 1st and 2nd. Low fly ball hit to shallow left/center; too high to be called a line drive, but could be trouble. U3 turns and takes maybe 3 steps to make the call on the fly ball (not caught). Runners now forced while F7 chases down her miss. Close play at 3B, but F5 is straddling the bag (not in contact with it) even though the throw beats the runner by a step. U3 has turned back to the infield and is literally in prime position for the call while PU is still moving into position.

So, cast in concrete? Or, can U3 communicate "I got it" and take the call?

[DaveASA/FED]

Cast in concrete, no, but it is a fairly solid rule. In your case I do not believe I would come back in and take that play. I would let the Plate umpire who you describe as heading toward the play make that call. Then if there is any question on the call they make I would get with my partners and offer the input I had from my position.

When I would come back in is where there is NOT an umpire heading to make a call at a base. Either from a breakdown in rotation or some other issue that has kept an umpire from being able to cover a call. One of the biggest reasons in my opinion is with multiple runners on and there is a rundown situation. This is where an umpire that has gone out MIGHT, be helpful to come back in and cover an aspect of the play. But this is a deviation and it needs to be clear that the umpire is doing so and crystal clear what part of the play they are covering so both your remaining partners can adjust to you being back in on the play.

Again staying out on the play is not set in dried concrete, maybe more like just poured concrete where you can wiggle lose on a very rare occasion to come back in. I am thinking in all the 3 person games I have done I may have seen an umpire need to come back in 3-4 times....So greater than 99% of the time you should stay out!!

[Little Jimmy]

Agree with Dave that the only time to come back in is when it's obvious that a play/base is completely uncovered. Even then you have to have a good idea who your partners are and how close they usually get to any play. I always tell our guys that when they go out, commit to the call, but when the ball comes back in turn back and look at the rest of the action. Their eyes might be needed for some input if asked.

[Andy]

I'll agree with Dave here in that it is a general rule of thumb, but there are exceptions. i don't see the play described in the OP as an exception, but would say to handle it pretty much as Dave described. The key is that U3, who has chased has turned his eyes back to the infield to be able to assist if needed.

I remember two times in 3 umpire games where I have chased and have had to either come back or should have come back to make the call in the infield...

1. I was U1, no runners on, ball hit to right-center gap. I chase, ball is not caught, F9 picks ball up near the fence and throws to second as the batter-runner attempts to advance to second. I see that neither of my partners is anywhere near second base. I start busting back in, have a decent angle but am still far away and see the runner beat the throw. I make the big safe call as I am closing in.

2. I am U3, runner on first, one out, blooper hit back behind second base. F4 and F6 running out, F8 charging in, ball falls between all three of them, I have chased for a possible over the shoulder or shoestring catch. Ball is picked up and thrown to F1 covering second. R1 had to hold near first in case of a catch and the play at second was close. U1 was unable to get inside due to the presence of F3 and R1 and ended up making the call from the baseline directly behind the advancing R1. Feedback from the UIC later was that either I or the PU should have read the difficulty U1 was having getting to position and moved to make the call at second from a more credible position.

[AtlUmpSteve]

So, I pregame a scenario in 3 man that addresses Andy's #2. I'm +1 on the OP response to wait until asked, UNLESS U3 used my suggested "variation".

Whenever an umpire is in B in 3 man, there is the possibility of a ball to center where F8 is coming straight in; and a ball dropping can create a quick force, or a shoestring catch can create a snap throw to 2nd. In many cases, no one else can reasonably make the call.

My pregame is to say this play only, F8 charging; ball either side, no issue, chase. I ask my base umpires on this play only to open up, and show the crew a stop sign hand trailing. That says, "I've got trap/catch, AND I'm pivoting with a throw, and I've got the snap throw to 2nd.

Yes, to those that ask, I am not pre-gaming a variation from approved mechanics; I am bringing to the attention of my crew a game situation that might (should) be addressed in that moment.

That said, I think that covers a hole in the standard; and maybe could have helped in OP, had it been pre-gamed as a possibility.

But that's just me, not anything that changes the book.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

So, I pregame a scenario in 3 man that addresses Andy's #2. I'm +1 on the OP response to wait until asked, UNLESS U3 used my suggested "variation".

Whenever an umpire is in B in 3 man, there is the possibility of a ball to center where F8 is coming straight in; and a ball dropping can create a quick force, or a shoestring catch can create a snap throw to 2nd. In many cases, no one else can reasonably make the call.

My pregame is to say this play only, F8 charging; ball either side, no issue, chase. I ask my base umpires on this play only to open up, and show the crew a stop sign hand trailing. That says, "I've got trap/catch, AND I'm pivoting with a throw, and I've got the snap throw to 2nd.

Yes, to those that ask, I am not pre-gaming a variation from approved mechanics; I am bringing to the attention of my crew a game situation that might (should) be addressed in that moment.

That said, I think that covers a hole in the standard; and maybe could have helped in OP, had it been pre-gamed as a possibility.

But that's just me, not anything that changes the book.

Steve.....when you say "B" in three-umpire are you referring to the times when U1 is off the line OR U3 is off the line? Different positions on the field, but I can see how your coverage of the play in question works from either place.

[AtlUmpSteve]

I am referring to both cases. Whenever an umpire is in the "middle", one of these plays can happen where neither of the other umpires can possibly be credible (U1 starting on first base line foul, or U3 starting on third base line foul, and PU 80' away and straight-lined to the throw to second).

[CecilOne]

One of the best mechanics tips I remember, especially as it can happen easily and is not a TWP.

FWIW, with only several 3 ump per year, I can't imagine myself thinking to "open up, and show the crew a stop sign hand trailing".
I will however be more aware of where partners will be for a difficult call and be sure to see it for later input.

[teebob21]

All of the above posts are good. Sometimes, you have to deviate. It SHOULD NOT be the standard mechanic. Last year, I covered home on a play after going out on a fly ball.

HS varsity game, one of our lower HS classes. The teams weren't great, but they were evenly matched. No runners on, 2 man system. Ball hit down the 1B line and F9 is charging. I turn to go out, and communicate with my partner. F9 misses the ball on a short-hop and it gets behind her. My not-very-mobile partner does a great job taking the BR to 3B, where F9 makes a great throw. The BR should be out at 3B by three steps. I turn and watch the play, drifting back towards my starting position. F5 whiffs on the catch, and the ball gets to the fence. The BR never breaks stride and comes home. There is no way my partner could have gotten back to the plate for a credible calling position. I called him off and got home in plenty of time for a bang-bang swipe tag play at home. Had I stayed on the grass, we'd have been absolutely stuck as there was no angle on the play from 3B for my plate partner to make a call.

[chapmaja]

I agree with what others have said. No it is not an absolute cast in stone rule. There are rare exceptions, such as what teebob mentioned, but the general rule should be if you go out, stay out, but observe what is going on.

We observe what is going on because we never know when our view may become important to the play.

I had this play several years ago. Two umpire system, fast pitch HS)

I'm to the left of the SS (runner on 2nd base). There is a fly ball that goes over my head into no mans land. I know the CF is quick and may be able to make a diving catch on the ball. I yell "Going" and head out. The CF just misses making the diving catch so I give a safe signal (trapped ball, my partner actually thought she caught it). CF comes up throwing home. Throw comes home but it way late to get the runner. Catcher notices that the batter made a wide turn at second and guns the ball back to 2nd, trying to get her coming back. My partner has absolutely no angle on the play whatsoever, so he calls her safe (Don't guess an out). The DC comes out and is rather animated that the runner never got back to the base. Finally my plate umpire comes out and asks what I saw. "She never got back to the base". He calls her out. The OC (3rd base box) is about to come unglued with me. Thankfully the first base coach intercepted the coach because she had the same angle and saw the same thing.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I agree with what others have said. No it is not an absolute cast in stone rule. There are rare exceptions, such as what teebob mentioned, but the general rule should be if you go out, stay out, but observe what is going on.

We observe what is going on because we never know when our view may become important to the play.

I had this play several years ago. Two umpire system, fast pitch HS)

I'm to the left of the SS (runner on 2nd base). There is a fly ball that goes over my head into no mans land. I know the CF is quick and may be able to make a diving catch on the ball. I yell "Going" and head out. The CF just misses making the diving catch so I give a safe signal (trapped ball, my partner actually thought she caught it). CF comes up throwing home. Throw comes home but it way late to get the runner. Catcher notices that the batter made a wide turn at second and guns the ball back to 2nd, trying to get her coming back. My partner has absolutely no angle on the play whatsoever, so he calls her safe (Don't guess an out). The DC comes out and is rather animated that the runner never got back to the base. Finally my plate umpire comes out and asks what I saw. "She never got back to the base". He calls her out. The OC (3rd base box) is about to come unglued with me. Thankfully the first base coach intercepted the coach because she had the same angle and saw the same thing.

The issue with coming back to the infield is a double (opposite) call. I saw this one time and it isn't pretty because it is impossible to reconcile.

I was always told (by the same folks Steve usually cites) that not coming back doesn't mean you don't watch, even slowly working your way back toward the infield. However, you don't get to the point you spook your partner, s/he has to know they've got to make the call.

[MD Longhorn]

Great input above. I would add only this.

The chance that your extra eyes might matter increase if you're working 2 man, and increase based on the amount of time the play continues to develop. If I'm working 2-man and go out, I'm out, and all calls belong to partner - but I'm coming back in, getting angle first and then distance, specifically alert to the possibility of a 2nd play (play at home ... then play at 3rd, for example) and also specifically alert to a rundown - at which point I will make every effort to get a side of the rundown.

Either of these are far less likely with 3 umpires.