sub

[RKBUmp]

First offense is team warning. Second offense is player and coach restricted to dugout.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

First offense is team warning. Second offense is player and coach restricted to dugout.

What he said.

[Andy]

I would not consider calling this to the offending team's attention "preventive umpiring"

Preventive umpiring is not allowing them to do something illegal when they ask you to do it...ie, an illegal sub or illegal Courtesy Runner.

In the OP, it is the offensive teams responsibility to re-enter the DP when she comes up to bat. As mentioned, there is essentially no penalty in NFHS for a first offense, but their is for a second offense and this could be used by the opponent to their advantage.

I had an unreported sub issue in a college game this last season....Coach entered a new pitcher at the start of an inning, but never reported her. I knew it, but didn't say anything and waited for the opposing coach to appeal it as there is a penalty in NCAA rules for an unreported sub. Opposing coach waited a couple of innings until it was to her advantage to appeal the unreported sub....extended an inning and scored a couple of runs.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Andy

I would not consider calling this to the offending team's attention "preventive umpiring"

Preventive umpiring is not allowing them to do something illegal when they ask you to do it...ie, an illegal sub or illegal Courtesy Runner.

In the OP, it is the offensive teams responsibility to re-enter the DP when she comes up to bat. As mentioned, there is essentially no penalty in NFHS for a first offense, but their is for a second offense and this could be used by the opponent to their advantage.

I had an unreported sub issue in a college game this last season....Coach entered a new pitcher at the start of an inning, but never reported her. I knew it, but didn't say anything and waited for the opposing coach to appeal it as there is a penalty in NCAA rules for an unreported sub. Opposing coach waited a couple of innings until it was to her advantage to appeal the unreported sub....extended an inning and scored a couple of runs.

Concur with everything Andy said.

I had a game a few years ago in which F3 was removed on offense (on the bases); then ran out to play defense once the inning was over. The visiting coach, who at the time was chair of the rules committee, stared at me until the opposing coach re-entered the player. He was making sure I didn't take away his play.
Funny enough, he was very close to not reporting a re-entry a few inning later.

I had a (D1) coach tell me it was my job to remind him to re-enter his players. Maybe I should listen to him, that coach is a lawyer.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

I had a (D1) coach tell me it was my job to remind him to re-enter his players. Maybe I should listen to him, that coach is a lawyer.

Lawyers are usually good at reading for comprehension. That coach should start with rules 8.5 and 15.2.

[jmkupka]

PONY National qualifier this weekend (PONY's pretty rough with their unreported sub penalty)...

Batter is on her 2nd-3rd pitch at bat, when I hear, from the defense dugout, "Blue, should she be there?"...

3B coach immediately calls, "Time, Blue! I wanna re-enter that player."

I didn't accept DC's question as a valid appeal, and noted the reentry on my sheet. I suppose I could have.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

I would not consider calling this to the offending team's attention "preventive umpiring"

Preventive umpiring is not allowing them to do something illegal when they ask you to do it...ie, an illegal sub or illegal Courtesy Runner.

In the OP, it is the offensive teams responsibility to re-enter the DP when she comes up to bat. As mentioned, there is essentially no penalty in NFHS for a first offense, but their is for a second offense and this could be used by the opponent to their advantage.

I had an unreported sub issue in a college game this last season....Coach entered a new pitcher at the start of an inning, but never reported her. I knew it, but didn't say anything and waited for the opposing coach to appeal it as there is a penalty in NCAA rules for an unreported sub. Opposing coach waited a couple of innings until it was to her advantage to appeal the unreported sub....extended an inning and scored a couple of runs.

I agree, for NCAA, EXCEPT ...

NFHS doesn't require the opposing team to notify the umpire of an unreported player, or other violations covered by rule 3-6. The key phrase has always been "when noticed", not when appealed; and it isn't a defined appeal!!. And the offense has every opportunity to meet the requirement to report until the player entered the batter's box.

This specific instance, "when noticed" by the plate umpire AFTER she entered the batter's box was a violation, and should have included the warning under 3-6-7 Penalty.

[RKBUmp]

Yes, the NFHS rule does state when noticed but every case play regarding unreported substitutes states when brought to the umpires attention by the offended coach, the offensive coach or the defensive coach. None of the case plays would indicate the umpire should rule on the infraction until brought to their attention by the other team.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Yes, the NFHS rule does state when noticed but every case play regarding unreported substitutes states when brought to the umpires attention by the offended coach, the offensive coach or the defensive coach. None of the case plays would indicate the umpire should rule on the infraction until brought to their attention by the other team.

The final case play only says brought to the attention of the umpire. It does not say by whom.

I personally have issued an unreported sub warning for a player I have witnessed in the game unreported.

The situation was as follows? #4 was the starting right fielder for the home team. In the third inning, the coach came up and indicated that #18 was going in for #4 in the batting order (her team was up, and #4/#18's spot was the leadoff batter). The coach also informed me that #4 would be going back in on defense. I made it clear to the coach she had to tell me when the actual substitution was made for #4 going back in (as I can not accept a projected substitution). During the defensive half of the inning, I look out and see #4 back in the outfield. I warned the team for an unreported substitute because 1) The coach had been informed I needed to be made aware of the substitution when #4 went back in for #18 and 2) It is within my rights as the plate umpire to rule on such circumstances because I noticed the player not properly reported.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

....

The situation was as follows? #4 was the starting right fielder for the home team. In the third inning, the coach came up and indicated that #18 was going in for #4 in the batting order (her team was up, and #4/#18's spot was the leadoff batter). The coach also informed me that #4 would be going back in on defense. I made it clear to the coach she had to tell me when the actual substitution was made for #4 going back in (as I can not accept a projected substitution). During the defensive half of the inning, I look out and see #4 back in the outfield. I warned the team for an unreported substitute because 1) The coach had been informed I needed to be made aware of the substitution when #4 went back in for #18 and 2) It is within my rights as the plate umpire to rule on such circumstances because I noticed the player not properly reported.

Yes...it is within your rights to issue a warning here, but in my opinion, this is the act of an OOO (over officious official) looking for boogers. Makes you appear to be looking for a "gotcha" call against this team.

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Now here is one for you guys. You have two outs and a running is caught stealing for the third out (during an at bat). Do you do anything in regards to the batter at bat. Personally I use preventative umpiring here as well. I will make sure everyone is on the same page as to who the leadoff batter is the next inning (the same girl that was in the box when the caught stealing occurred). If we then have an out of order issue, there is no confusion as to who should have been up.

I've got no problem with you doing this as long as you aren't obnoxious about it. I choose not to do this. It is not my job to track the batting order each time a batter comes up, only to rule on a batting out of order appeal.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Andy

Yes...it is within your rights to issue a warning here, but in my opinion, this is the act of an OOO (over officious official) looking for boogers. Makes you appear to be looking for a "gotcha" call against this team.



I've got no problem with you doing this as long as you aren't obnoxious about it. I choose not to do this. It is not my job to track the batting order each time a batter comes up, only to rule on a batting out of order appeal.

Two years ago, I noticed an illegal re-entry that was unreported. I dealt with it and I do think it was my place to do so. Anyone disagree?

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Yes, the NFHS rule does state when noticed but every case play regarding unreported substitutes states when brought to the umpires attention by the offended coach, the offensive coach or the defensive coach. None of the case plays would indicate the umpire should rule on the infraction until brought to their attention by the other team.

Except one of them does say when brought to the attention of the umpire, but does not specify by whom the infraction was brought to the attention by.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Yes, the NFHS rule does state when noticed but every case play regarding unreported substitutes states when brought to the umpires attention by the offended coach, the offensive coach or the defensive coach. None of the case plays would indicate the umpire should rule on the infraction until brought to their attention by the other team.

Which OTHER violation of 3-6 would you wait until brought to your attention by an opposing coach?

Illegal equipment
Fake tag
Carelessly throwing bat
Hitting balls to players to warm up after the game has started
Out of the approved team areas
Using amplifiers or bullhorns
.........

Okay, the case plays all state the infractions are brought to the umpire's attention; does that mean that is the only way it might be noticed, or might it simply be the predominant play, and immaterial to the case play ruling??