sub

benbret · #1 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 08:36am

NFHS girls varsity fast pitch. I am plate umpire 2nd inning visiting team DP gets a base hit single. Flex runs for the DP so the DP has left the game. 4th inning DP comes to bat but has not report back in. I remembered her. I ask her if she was re entering the game. She she that she was. Home coach was very upset that I had ask her. She though I should have waited and let them report that she was illegal. I explained to the coach that all she would have been was an unreported sub and there was no penalty. Should I have waited and let the home team tell me that she was an unreported sub or was I within my rights to correct it when I noticed that she was the batter?

DaveASA/FED · #2 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 09:21am

I would call that preventitive umpiring. If you can keep something against the rules from happening then do it!! JMO

CecilOne · #3 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 09:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by benbret

NFHS girls varsity fast pitch. I am plate umpire 2nd inning visiting team DP gets a base hit single. Flex runs for the DP so the DP has left the game. 4th inning DP comes to bat but has not report back in. I remembered her. I ask her if she was re entering the game. She she that she was. Home coach was very upset that I had ask her. She though I should have waited and let them report that she was illegal. I explained to the coach that all she would have been was an unreported sub and there was no penalty. Should I have waited and let the home team tell me that she was an unreported sub or was I within my rights to correct it when I noticed that she was the batter?

Not illegal, just unreported.
Fairly common to handle an unreported that way, but don't think it is in the rules anywhere.

Penalty if occurs is restriction to the bench along with the head coach.
Sorry, team warning and restricted on next offense.

RKBUmp · #4 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 09:31am

While in NFHS it is essentially no penalty, in other rule sets there are penalties for an unreported sub. I do not consider it to be preventive umpiring to bring it to the team or coaches attention. Yes, in FED it is basically nothing, but in most other rule sets there are penalties the opposing team could use to their advantage on both offense and defense. If you bring it to the offending teams attention you are removing the other teams ability to appeal that infraction. As a general rule I treat all rule sets the same and it is the offended teams responsibility to appeal it.

BlueDevilRef · #5 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 10:18am

At what point do you consider her to be reentering the game?

For bat out of order, it is upon completion of at bat. But here, as soon as you have to ask, imho, she is unreported and you issue warning. As stated, not a big deal in NFHS.

CecilOne · #6 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 10:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

At what point do you consider her to be reentering the game?

In the batter box.

AtlUmpSteve · #7 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 10:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

At what point do you consider her to be reentering the game?

For bat out of order, it is upon completion of at bat. But here, as soon as you have to ask, imho, she is unreported and you issue warning. As stated, not a big deal in NFHS.

3-3-3-d

teebob21 · #8 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 10:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Not illegal, just unreported.
Fairly common to handle an unreported that way, but don't think it is in the rules anywhere.

Penalty if occurs is restriction to the bench along with the head coach.
Sorry, team warning and restricted on next offense.

Cecil, can you re-clarify the penalty for me? Is the coach restricted on the first offense or the second? The rule and its effects are written in a way that can be interpreted differently by people.

RKBUmp · #9 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 10:53am

First offense is team warning. Second offense is player and coach restricted to dugout.

CecilOne · #10 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 11:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

First offense is team warning. Second offense is player and coach restricted to dugout.

What he said.

Andy · #11 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 11:15am

I would not consider calling this to the offending team's attention "preventive umpiring"

Preventive umpiring is not allowing them to do something illegal when they ask you to do it...ie, an illegal sub or illegal Courtesy Runner.

In the OP, it is the offensive teams responsibility to re-enter the DP when she comes up to bat. As mentioned, there is essentially no penalty in NFHS for a first offense, but their is for a second offense and this could be used by the opponent to their advantage.

I had an unreported sub issue in a college game this last season....Coach entered a new pitcher at the start of an inning, but never reported her. I knew it, but didn't say anything and waited for the opposing coach to appeal it as there is a penalty in NCAA rules for an unreported sub. Opposing coach waited a couple of innings until it was to her advantage to appeal the unreported sub....extended an inning and scored a couple of runs.

Big Slick · #12 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 11:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy

I would not consider calling this to the offending team's attention "preventive umpiring"

Preventive umpiring is not allowing them to do something illegal when they ask you to do it...ie, an illegal sub or illegal Courtesy Runner.

In the OP, it is the offensive teams responsibility to re-enter the DP when she comes up to bat. As mentioned, there is essentially no penalty in NFHS for a first offense, but their is for a second offense and this could be used by the opponent to their advantage.

I had an unreported sub issue in a college game this last season....Coach entered a new pitcher at the start of an inning, but never reported her. I knew it, but didn't say anything and waited for the opposing coach to appeal it as there is a penalty in NCAA rules for an unreported sub. Opposing coach waited a couple of innings until it was to her advantage to appeal the unreported sub....extended an inning and scored a couple of runs.

Concur with everything Andy said.

I had a game a few years ago in which F3 was removed on offense (on the bases); then ran out to play defense once the inning was over. The visiting coach, who at the time was chair of the rules committee, stared at me until the opposing coach re-entered the player. He was making sure I didn't take away his play.
Funny enough, he was very close to not reporting a re-entry a few inning later.

I had a (D1) coach tell me it was my job to remind him to re-enter his players. Maybe I should listen to him, that coach is a lawyer.

teebob21 · #13 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 12:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Slick

I had a (D1) coach tell me it was my job to remind him to re-enter his players. Maybe I should listen to him, that coach is a lawyer.

Lawyers are usually good at reading for comprehension. That coach should start with rules 8.5 and 15.2.

jmkupka · #14 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 01:59pm

PONY National qualifier this weekend (PONY's pretty rough with their unreported sub penalty)...

Batter is on her 2nd-3rd pitch at bat, when I hear, from the defense dugout, "Blue, should she be there?"...

3B coach immediately calls, "Time, Blue! I wanna re-enter that player."

I didn't accept DC's question as a valid appeal, and noted the reentry on my sheet. I suppose I could have.

AtlUmpSteve · #15 (**permalink**) Tue May 31, 2016, 04:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy

I would not consider calling this to the offending team's attention "preventive umpiring"

Preventive umpiring is not allowing them to do something illegal when they ask you to do it...ie, an illegal sub or illegal Courtesy Runner.

In the OP, it is the offensive teams responsibility to re-enter the DP when she comes up to bat. As mentioned, there is essentially no penalty in NFHS for a first offense, but their is for a second offense and this could be used by the opponent to their advantage.

I had an unreported sub issue in a college game this last season....Coach entered a new pitcher at the start of an inning, but never reported her. I knew it, but didn't say anything and waited for the opposing coach to appeal it as there is a penalty in NCAA rules for an unreported sub. Opposing coach waited a couple of innings until it was to her advantage to appeal the unreported sub....extended an inning and scored a couple of runs.

I agree, for NCAA, EXCEPT ...

NFHS doesn't require the opposing team to notify the umpire of an unreported player, or other violations covered by rule 3-6. The key phrase has always been "when noticed", not when appealed; and it isn't a defined appeal!!. And the offense has every opportunity to meet the requirement to report until the player entered the batter's box.

This specific instance, "when noticed" by the plate umpire AFTER she entered the batter's box was a violation, and should have included the warning under 3-6-7 Penalty.