sub

[RKBUmp]

Yes, the NFHS rule does state when noticed but every case play regarding unreported substitutes states when brought to the umpires attention by the offended coach, the offensive coach or the defensive coach. None of the case plays would indicate the umpire should rule on the infraction until brought to their attention by the other team.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Yes, the NFHS rule does state when noticed but every case play regarding unreported substitutes states when brought to the umpires attention by the offended coach, the offensive coach or the defensive coach. None of the case plays would indicate the umpire should rule on the infraction until brought to their attention by the other team.

The final case play only says brought to the attention of the umpire. It does not say by whom.

I personally have issued an unreported sub warning for a player I have witnessed in the game unreported.

The situation was as follows? #4 was the starting right fielder for the home team. In the third inning, the coach came up and indicated that #18 was going in for #4 in the batting order (her team was up, and #4/#18's spot was the leadoff batter). The coach also informed me that #4 would be going back in on defense. I made it clear to the coach she had to tell me when the actual substitution was made for #4 going back in (as I can not accept a projected substitution). During the defensive half of the inning, I look out and see #4 back in the outfield. I warned the team for an unreported substitute because 1) The coach had been informed I needed to be made aware of the substitution when #4 went back in for #18 and 2) It is within my rights as the plate umpire to rule on such circumstances because I noticed the player not properly reported.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Yes, the NFHS rule does state when noticed but every case play regarding unreported substitutes states when brought to the umpires attention by the offended coach, the offensive coach or the defensive coach. None of the case plays would indicate the umpire should rule on the infraction until brought to their attention by the other team.

Except one of them does say when brought to the attention of the umpire, but does not specify by whom the infraction was brought to the attention by.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Yes, the NFHS rule does state when noticed but every case play regarding unreported substitutes states when brought to the umpires attention by the offended coach, the offensive coach or the defensive coach. None of the case plays would indicate the umpire should rule on the infraction until brought to their attention by the other team.

Which OTHER violation of 3-6 would you wait until brought to your attention by an opposing coach?

Illegal equipment
Fake tag
Carelessly throwing bat
Hitting balls to players to warm up after the game has started
Out of the approved team areas
Using amplifiers or bullhorns
.........

Okay, the case plays all state the infractions are brought to the umpire's attention; does that mean that is the only way it might be noticed, or might it simply be the predominant play, and immaterial to the case play ruling??

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by benbret

NFHS girls varsity fast pitch. I am plate umpire 2nd inning visiting team DP gets a base hit single. Flex runs for the DP so the DP has left the game. 4th inning DP comes to bat but has not report back in. I remembered her. I ask her if she was re entering the game. She she that she was. Home coach was very upset that I had ask her. She though I should have waited and let them report that she was illegal. I explained to the coach that all she would have been was an unreported sub and there was no penalty. Should I have waited and let the home team tell me that she was an unreported sub or was I within my rights to correct it when I noticed that she was the batter?

When did you notice her? Was it before she entered the batters box and the ball was declared live? If so, that is preventative umpiring, and yes the coach has the right to be upset, but you did what you felt was right for the game.

If you noticed her and asked her before she entered the batters box and the ball was declared live (3-3-3-d and 3-3-3-e) the team has not committed an unreported substitution violation because at the point the unreported substitute had not yet entered the game. If it was after she was in the box and the ball was declared live, then she has entered the game unreported and a team warning must be issued.

I would say this, I generally will not use preventative umpiring on things like this. It is up to the players and coaches to know the rules about substitutions and lineups. I expect the coach, as the adult, to follow the rules.

I will use preventative umpiring in situations where a rule isn't yet broken, but could be if the action continues.

Examples of this include seeing a player warming up with jewelry on. I will issue a reminder before the game starts (to both teams) to prevent an issue like this from happening. If I see a pitcher come out with a glove on her pitching hand, I will issue a reminder to take it off, rather than wait until it becomes illegal.

Another is a "thrown" bat. If a batter swings and tosses the bat to an area where it isn't an issue, but it was clearly a thrown bat, I generally won't issue a warning, but I will remind the coach. (If it is thrown and hits me or the catcher, it is a team warning immediately).

Believe it or not, I do try to avoid as many problems as I can.

Now here is one for you guys. You have two outs and a running is caught stealing for the third out (during an at bat). Do you do anything in regards to the batter at bat. Personally I use preventative umpiring here as well. I will make sure everyone is on the same page as to who the leadoff batter is the next inning (the same girl that was in the box when the caught stealing occurred). If we then have an out of order issue, there is no confusion as to who should have been up.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

....

The situation was as follows? #4 was the starting right fielder for the home team. In the third inning, the coach came up and indicated that #18 was going in for #4 in the batting order (her team was up, and #4/#18's spot was the leadoff batter). The coach also informed me that #4 would be going back in on defense. I made it clear to the coach she had to tell me when the actual substitution was made for #4 going back in (as I can not accept a projected substitution). During the defensive half of the inning, I look out and see #4 back in the outfield. I warned the team for an unreported substitute because 1) The coach had been informed I needed to be made aware of the substitution when #4 went back in for #18 and 2) It is within my rights as the plate umpire to rule on such circumstances because I noticed the player not properly reported.

Yes...it is within your rights to issue a warning here, but in my opinion, this is the act of an OOO (over officious official) looking for boogers. Makes you appear to be looking for a "gotcha" call against this team.

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Now here is one for you guys. You have two outs and a running is caught stealing for the third out (during an at bat). Do you do anything in regards to the batter at bat. Personally I use preventative umpiring here as well. I will make sure everyone is on the same page as to who the leadoff batter is the next inning (the same girl that was in the box when the caught stealing occurred). If we then have an out of order issue, there is no confusion as to who should have been up.

I've got no problem with you doing this as long as you aren't obnoxious about it. I choose not to do this. It is not my job to track the batting order each time a batter comes up, only to rule on a batting out of order appeal.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

You have two outs and a running is caught stealing for the third out (during an at bat). Do you do anything in regards to the batter at bat. Personally I use preventative umpiring here as well. I will make sure everyone is on the same page as to who the leadoff batter is the next inning (the same girl that was in the box when the caught stealing occurred). If we then have an out of order issue, there is no confusion as to who should have been up.

At 10U, I'll tell the player they get to bat first next inning. I will not go to "everyone" to make sure they are on the same page.

At 12U and up, or HS, not only SHOULD they know... but they WILL know - I've yet to have BOO occur in a game like this.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

At 10U, I'll tell the player they get to bat first next inning. I will not go to "everyone" to make sure they are on the same page.

At 12U and up, or HS, not only SHOULD they know... but they WILL know - I've yet to have BOO occur in a game like this.

Once they are 12, they will not let the at bat go.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

At 10U, I'll tell the player they get to bat first next inning. I will not go to "everyone" to make sure they are on the same page.

At 12U and up, or HS, not only SHOULD they know... but they WILL know - I've yet to have BOO occur in a game like this.

Had my first non-HS/MS game of the season today and it was a 12/U game. The league uses a maximum runs per inning rule. 4 consecutive half innings ended with the run limit being reached on a passed ball while the batter was still at bat. Twice, there was an issue of which batter was supposed to be at bat to start the inning. At 12/U they still are not sure, at least not in this league.

[umpjim]

Slightly off topic. Why is softball so strict about unreported subs and baseball does not care?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Slightly off topic. Why is softball so strict about unreported subs and baseball does not care?

You would have to ask baseball. Maintaining an up-to-the-second accurate line-up card eases any questions or protests as it would pertain to the official line up.

Beside, people cheat

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Andy

Yes...it is within your rights to issue a warning here, but in my opinion, this is the act of an OOO (over officious official) looking for boogers. Makes you appear to be looking for a "gotcha" call against this team.



I've got no problem with you doing this as long as you aren't obnoxious about it. I choose not to do this. It is not my job to track the batting order each time a batter comes up, only to rule on a batting out of order appeal.

Two years ago, I noticed an illegal re-entry that was unreported. I dealt with it and I do think it was my place to do so. Anyone disagree?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You would have to ask baseball. Maintaining an up-to-the-second accurate line-up card eases any questions or protests as it would pertain to the official line up.

Beside, people cheat

I'm not sure there is a reason. Different sports, different rules.

Unreported batters are usually caught by the other team. It's when they're unreported when the team takes the field that they usually don't get noticed.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Two years ago, I noticed an illegal re-entry that was unreported. I dealt with it and I do think it was my place to do so. Anyone disagree?

What was the situation?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Andy

What was the situation?

A starter, replaced, reentered, replaced, reentered a second time.
I recognized her because originally a pitcher and because I said "that's her reentry" to the coach the first time.
Might not have noticed right away if an outfielder.