DP Flex

[jmkupka]

Always thought I had DP/Flex down pat, so I can't tell if this is a dumb question or not...

Starting lineup, DP is in the field (along with the 8 other starters)... Flex in the 10th spot is not listed in any position.

Should I accept this as a legal lineup?


This might be an even dumber part...
If it is legal, and accepted, when Flex does come in is it considered a re-entry (because just being listed is considered an entry)?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Can't tell if this is a dumb question or not...

Starting lineup, DP is in the field, Flex in the 10th spot is not listed in any position.

Should I accept this as a legal lineup?

It's not legal, so unless this is a trick question, I'll say no. The coach can start it the other way and immediately make the change which is likely what the goal was here.
For example: Start with the Flex playing left field and immediately have the DP replace the flex. This gives you effectively a 9 person line-up. Now late in the game when you go to make switches you can first go back up to 10. But in this scenario the Flex burns her initial eligibility at the plate meeting and has to use her re-entry to bring it up to 10.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

This might be an even dumber part...
If it is legal, and accepted, when Flex does come in is it considered a re-entry (because just being listed is considered an entry)?

Now you're making it more complicated. It's not legal, so the question doesn't quite work. But the related question, what if the umpire fouled up and accepted it anyway. I've never given it that much thought and if I was on the field now helping a confused PU, I think I'd say, we're going to treat it as if we had started with it right and made an immediate substitution. So yes, burn the flex's re-entry here but allow the coach to use the DP/Flex. I have no idea if that's right though.

Related scenario: What if the PU accepts a lineup with 11 (including a legally listed flex) or 10 (with no flex) by mistake. What do you do when that comes up and does it matter if it comes up while the extra player is at bat?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Always thought I had DP/Flex down pat, so I can't tell if this is a dumb question or not...

Starting lineup, DP is in the field (along with the 8 other starters)... Flex in the 10th spot is not listed in any position.

Should I accept this as a legal lineup?


This might be an even dumber part...
If it is legal, and accepted, when Flex does come in is it considered a re-entry (because just being listed is considered an entry)?

What was discussed about the use of DP/Flex at the plate meeting?

[jmkupka]

Didn't really happen, just a hypothetical sit that just occurred to me...

Let's say, the coach wanted the options of a DP/Flex available. Coach knows this must happen at the start of the game, but she didn't need the Flex's talents just yet.

From youngump's response, it seems the required procedure would be to list Flex in a defense spot, then immediately burn a DP-to-Flex sub at the pregame.

Thanks guys.

[Dakota]

Actually, assuming it was not discussed at the plate meeting, my suggestion would be to treat it as a standard starting 9.

DP/Flex was not used at the beginning of the game, so proceed with a starting 9 plus subs. IOW, do not allow the team to go to 10 players, since they were never at 10 players to begin with.

[Andy]

The rules define the FLEX as being able to play any defensive position and also state that all players must have a defensive position listed on the lineup. Since the DP is not a defensive player, s/he is simply noted on the lineup as DP.

Therefore, the FLEX must have a defensive position listed in order for the lineup to be accepted by the PU. This should be addressed at the pregame...."Coach, what position is your FLEX playing?" Note it on the card, then if they want to make a change after the lineups are accepted, you note that as well.

[BlueDevilRef]

And make it simple in this case, flex has to play defense or she has left the game.

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by Andy

The rules define the FLEX as being able to play any defensive position and also state that all players must have a defensive position listed on the lineup. Since the DP is not a defensive player, s/he is simply noted on the lineup as DP.

Therefore, the FLEX must have a defensive position listed in order for the lineup to be accepted by the PU. This should be addressed at the pregame...."Coach, what position is your FLEX playing?" Note it on the card, then if they want to make a change after the lineups are accepted, you note that as well.

Andy is 100% correct, All positions must be listed.

At my plate conference I first note if the DP Flex is being used. Both DP and Flex must be noted in the positions portion of lineup.

I then look for the Pitcher and Catcher announcing each by jersey number.

I then make sure all 9 Defensive positions are accounted for including where the Flex is starting at on Defense.

I then check how many subs and that their is no duplicate Jersey numbers.

I then have each coach double check their lineup cards when they return them to me I say they are official.

I then ask them if they would like to make any changes at this time

All of this takes about a minute for each team and makes sure that nothing is missed.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Andy

The rules define the FLEX as being able to play any defensive position and also state that all players must have a defensive position listed on the lineup. Since the DP is not a defensive player, s/he is simply noted on the lineup as DP.

Therefore, the FLEX must have a defensive position listed in order for the lineup to be accepted by the PU. This should be addressed at the pregame...."Coach, what position is your FLEX playing?" Note it on the card, then if they want to make a change after the lineups are accepted, you note that as well.

Originally Posted by Insane Blue

Andy is 100% correct, All positions must be listed.

At my plate conference I first note if the DP Flex is being used. Both DP and Flex must be noted in the positions portion of lineup.

I then look for the Pitcher and Catcher announcing each by jersey number.

I then make sure all 9 Defensive positions are accounted for including where the Flex is starting at on Defense.

I then check how many subs and that their is no duplicate Jersey numbers.

I then have each coach double check their lineup cards when they return them to me I say they are official.

I then ask them if they would like to make any changes at this time

All of this takes about a minute for each team and makes sure that nothing is missed.

Yes, of course, but the OP situation was "what if...". How to conduct the plate meeting to avoid it is a MUCH more boring topic!

[CecilOne]

I don't see the need for:
"make sure all 9 Defensive positions are accounted for including where the Flex is starting at on Defense"

"where the Flex is starting " only if P or C.



I don't see the need for:
"ask them if they would like to make any changes at this time
"

[VC Blue]

Andy there is no need to list the position with the flex except pitcher and catcher, and your doing this for line up card management for courtesy runners not the flex. The flex can play any of the nine or she's on the bench. That's all I need to know. I don't even understand why you would need it for line up management.

Ron

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by VC Blue

Andy there is no need to list the position with the flex except pitcher and catcher, and your doing this for line up card management for courtesy runners not the flex. The flex can play any of the nine or she's on the bench. That's all I need to know. I don't even understand why you would need it for line up management.

Ron

Because ASA 4-1-a-1 requires the lineup card to list defensive positions as does NFHS 3-1-3 in order to be legal and accepted by the umpire.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Because ASA 4-1-a-1 requires the lineup card to list defensive positions as does NFHS 3-1-3 in order to be legal and accepted by the umpire.

The rulebook does require the positions to be listed on the card. This means the OP would be illegal since the Flex does not have a position listed.

What is also clear, based on casebook situations 3.3.2 D, and 3.3.5 A and 3.3.5 B is that the player may be withdrawn from the game (substituted for) and has one re-entry remaining.

In this case a legal substitution because the DP can play defense for the FLEX, which reduces the lineup from 10 players to 9 players, provided the coach has informed you that this substitution was taking place. If they did not report this to you, and you or the opponent noticed the DP playing defense, not the FLEX, and it was not reported we now have an unreported substitution situation and the associated penalties for such a violation.

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I don't see the need for:
"make sure all 9 Defensive positions are accounted for including where the Flex is starting at on Defense"

"where the Flex is starting " only if P or C.



I don't see the need for:
"ask them if they would like to make any changes at this time
"

Trust me when I say not doing so will bite you one day.