1st and ten

benbret · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 05, 2014, 09:13am

Team A makes the line to gain for a first down. Clock stops chains are moved and reset. Referee is ready to mark the ready for play (has hand in the air) A 26 comes by and says something bad to referee about his ability. Referee calls an unsportsman 15 yard penalty. He then has the chain crew to reset the chains and it is still 1st and 10 after the 15 yards are marked off. Is this correct? NFHS rules.

referee20 · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 05, 2014, 10:47am

This is correct. Had he blown the RFP the penalty would be marked off making it 1st & 25. This is a dead ball foul between downs.

jTheUmp · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 05, 2014, 08:37pm

This is correct in NFHS, NCAA, and NFL rulesets.

In fact, this very situation just happened a little bit ago in the Sunday night Bengals/Patriots game. As usual, the announcers were clueless.

APG · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 05, 2014, 09:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

This is correct in NFHS, NCAA, and NFL rulesets.

In fact, this very situation just happened a little bit ago in the Sunday night Bengals/Patriots game. As usual, the announcers were clueless.

Not true in the NFL...fouls against officials, no matter when they occur, are enforced as fouls between down.

So in the play that you are referencing, if the penalty would have been UNS for a foul against an official (instead of being a taunt against an opponent), the result after enforcement would be 1st & 25.

jTheUmp · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 05, 2014, 09:20pm

Seriously?

I mean, that's a great idea (might as well make it hurt as much as possible if you UNS an official)... but that's something I never thought I'd actually see in a ruleset.

APG · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 05, 2014, 09:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Seriously?

I mean, that's a great idea (might as well make it hurt as much as possible if you UNS an official)... but that's something I never thought I'd actually see in a ruleset.

Yup...here's a case book play:

A.R. 12.112 FOUL AGAINST OFFICIAL
Fourth-and-10 on 50. Punter A1 muffs the snap and is downed at the A35. B2 clips A2 after the play has ended (dead-ball foul). Upset that a foul was called, B2 pushes the Field Judge.

Ruling: B’s ball, first-and-25 on B35. Disqualify B2. Not a multiple foul because all fouls against officials are enforced as fouls between downs. (12-3-1-h)

Robert Goodman · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 06, 2014, 11:37am

They're all fouls between downs, duh. The issue determining the difference between NFL & the other codes is not when the foul occurred or is deemed to have occurred. The issue is when the series of downs begins in relationship to administration.

BktBallRef · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 06, 2014, 01:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

They're all fouls between downs, duh.

You missed the point, duh. You were to busy being a smartass to understand.

That point is that whether the foul occurred before or after the ready for play was blown, the chains would still have been reset for 1st and 25 in the NFL. Not the case in NFHS and NCAA.

MD Longhorn · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 06, 2014, 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

They're all fouls between downs, duh. The issue determining the difference between NFL & the other codes is not when the foul occurred or is deemed to have occurred. The issue is when the series of downs begins in relationship to administration.

I love it that you punctuated the dumbest thing I've read on here in a while with "duh", as if the other guy was the clueless one.

In the NFL, "fouls between downs" doesn't mean what you apparently think it does.

Rich · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 06, 2014, 04:32pm

Apparently one can referee football without actually putting the stripes on.

HLin NC · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 06, 2014, 04:52pm

Quote:

Apparently one can referee football without actually putting the stripes on.

Happens every Friday night, er Saturday, uh Sunday, mmmm Thursday- Ah just about every day/night of the week.

I still say the Ignore Poster function is a valuable tool

Robert Goodman · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 06, 2014, 08:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Apparently one can referee football without actually putting the stripes on.

I do it plenty in practice.

Robert Goodman · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 06, 2014, 08:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You missed the point, duh. You were to busy being a smartass to understand.

That point is that whether the foul occurred before or after the ready for play was blown, the chains would still have been reset for 1st and 25 in the NFL. Not the case in NFHS and NCAA.

But that's because when the new series is deemed to be awarded differs between the codes. In the NFL, the series is deemed to have been awarded before the administration of the penalty.

BktBallRef · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 06, 2014, 09:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But that's because when the new series is deemed to be awarded differs between the codes. In the NFL, the series is deemed to have been awarded before the administration of the penalty.

And that exactly what he said, that the NFL is different than NFHS and NCAA. That was his point, in response to jTheUmp who thought NFHS, NCAA and NFL were the same.

There was no need for your smart ass comment.

APG · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 06, 2014, 09:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

They're all fouls between downs, duh. The issue determining the difference between NFL & the other codes is not when the foul occurred or is deemed to have occurred. The issue is when the series of downs begins in relationship to administration.

No.

The NFL has a specific type of foul called a foul between down which is different than a dead ball foul.