not out of bounds??? - Page 2

PSU213 · #16 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 22, 2003, 12:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by nvfoa15
Casebook 9.6.1 a: If A1 never returns to the field of play do you have IP?

If he tips the ball to another player and then lands OOB (i.e. never returns to the field), it is still IP. If he were to be standing or running OOB, jump, catch the ball, and then land OOB, you just have an incomplete pass (no foul).

nvfoa15 · #17 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 22, 2003, 12:16pm

The posted play is exactly as written in the case book: 9.6.1 SITUATION D. The NF's ruling is (for (a))is a legal catch and A1 is guilty of IP. Rule references are 2-4-1, 2-28, 4-3.

Rule 2-4-1 deals with what is a catch - no argument there. Rule 2-28 has to do with players, etc out of bounds: "A player ... is out of bounds when any part of the person is touching anything, ... who is on or outside the sideline or endline." Thus A1 is out of bounds when he contacts the ground beyond the sideline. Rule 2-28-3 says: "A loose ball is out of bounds when it touches anything, including a player or game official, who is out of bounds."

Therefore, IMHO, in play (a) this can't be a legal catch. A1 is out of bounds when he touched the ground (twice) beyond the sideline. When the ball is touched (or touches) by him it is also out of bounds. The fact that A1 is airborne at the time that he touches the ball is immaterial - he has established himself out of bounds!
A2 does not catch the ball (play over on A1's touch/bat) and no IP either.

[Edited by nvfoa15 on Aug 22nd, 2003 at 12:19 PM]

PSU213 · #18 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 22, 2003, 12:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by nvfoa15
The posted play is exactly as written in the case book: 9.6.1 SITUATION D. The NF's ruling is (for (a))is a legal catch and A1 is guilty of IP. Rule references are 2-4-1, 2-28, 4-3.

Rule 2-4-1 deals with what is a catch - no argument there. Rule 2-28 has to do with players, etc out of bounds: "A player ... is out of bounds when nay part of the person is touching anything, ... who is on or outside he sideline or endline." Thus A1 is out of bounds when he contacts the ground beyond the sideline. Rule 2-28-3 says: "A loose ball is out of bounds when it touches anything, including a player or game official, who is out of bounds."

Therefore, IMHO, in play (a) this can't be a legal catch. A1 is out of bounds when he touched the ground (twice) betond the sideline. When the ball is touched (or touches) by him it is also out of bounds. The fact that A1 is airborne at the time that he touches the ball is immaterial - he has established himself out of bounds!
A2 does not catch the ball (play over on A1's touch/bat) and no IP either.

Here is 2-28-1: "A player or other person is out of bounds when any part of the person is TOUCHING anything, other than another player or game official, who is on or outside the sideline or endline."

The key word here is touching. If the player has jumped in the air he is not touching anything OOB, therefore he is not OOB. In NF rules there is no "establishing" or "re-establishing" one's self in or out of bounds. If the player's foot is on the line, he is OOB; if he jumps in the air, he no longer OOB as soon as his foot is no longer touching the line, whether or not stepped on the ground in-bounds first

nvfoa15 · #19 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 22, 2003, 12:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by PSU213

Here is 2-28-1: "A player or other person is out of bounds when any part of the person is TOUCHING anything, other than another player or game official, who is on or outside the sideline or endline."

The key word here is touching. If the player has jumped in the air he is not touching anything OOB, therefore he is not OOB. In NF rules there is no "establishing" or "re-establishing" one's self in or out of bounds. If the player's foot is on the line, he is OOB; if he jumps in the air, he no longer OOB as soon as his foot is no longer touching the line, whether or not stepped on the ground in-bounds first [/B]

PSU213,
Your statement above seems to contradict itself. If A1 is running down the field, along the sideline, inbounds, he has "established" himself inbounds (and remains so!). When he steps on the line he "establishes" himself out of bounds and remains so until he returns inbounds. The mere fact that A1 jumps in the air does not make him inbounds - touching the ground/player etc. in the field of play makes him inbounds!

cmathews · #20 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 22, 2003, 01:48pm

Nvfoa,
That was my original question on the post. I know I was using the basketball reasoning that you establish yourself in or out of bounds....but in football that does not hold true...you are where you are touching at the time... and since you can't go out of bounds without being forced, and then participate in the play, if he isn't touching but participates (taps the ball) he is participating illegally...I agree if he has his foot touching OOB when he taps the ball it is just OOB and no penalty....

nvfoa15 · #21 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 22, 2003, 02:08pm

Ok. A player who is airborne is neither inbounds nor out of bounds until he contacts ground/player etc.! Thus no ruling can be made utill he does so?

cmathews · #22 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 22, 2003, 02:33pm

NVFOA the fact that he went out of bounds without being forced makes it illegal participation for him to touch the pass unless he is out of bounds, which since he isn't makes his tip illegal participation.....kinda weird...but the rules..

BktBallRef · #23 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 22, 2003, 03:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by nvfoa15
Ok. A player who is airborne is neither inbounds nor out of bounds until he contacts ground/player etc.! Thus no ruling can be made utill he does so?

Exactly. In the original play, it would seem to me that he is considered to be inbounds when he bats the ball, since, by rule, he is not OOB.

cmathews · #24 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 22, 2003, 03:48pm

he is neither in or out of bounds in the first instance, but since he did go out of bounds without being forced, he is no longer allowed to participate in the play thus illegal participation, that is also why you must come down with at least one foot inbounds to complete a catch...

chayos · #25 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 22, 2003, 04:34pm

If player A goes out of bounds and DOES NOT RETURN and tips or bats a pass the play is dead. The pass is incomplete. Art 2.28.1 "A player or other person is out of bounds when any part of the person is touching anything, other than another player or game official, who is on or outside the sidelines or end line.

So if the player is out of bounds and makes no attempt to re-enter the field o play as soon as he touches the pass it is incomplete.

cmathews · #26 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 22, 2003, 04:38pm

Chayos,
Read the situation..the player leaps into the air before he tips the pass....and as has been discussed above and on page 1 if the player is not touching anything they are not out of bounds or inbounds...9.6 is the case book reference...

PSU213 · #27 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 23, 2003, 09:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by nvfoa15
Ok. A player who is airborne is neither inbounds nor out of bounds until he contacts ground/player etc.! Thus no ruling can be made utill he does so?

That's not entirely true. If we go back to the original play, the A player is running OOB, jumps, tips the ball, and the ball is caught in bounds by a teammate. In this situation it does not matter where he lands, the ball remains live and it is an IP foul. Note that in the case book play they do not specify whether he lands in bounds or OOB on the tip play--it therefore is not relevent to the ruling. If he actually catches the ball, then where he first contacts the ground becomes important (in bounds: IP foul; OOB: incomplete pass, no foul).