Basic Spot for a Loose Ball Play.

[Scooby]

This has been going around our association:
1st and 10 from A35, A1 drops back to pass, A78 holds at the 30 yard line. The pass is incomplete.
Many have said the penalty is enforced from the 30, resulting in 1st and 25 form the 20. I believe that it should be 1st and 20 from the 25. As the basic spot of a loose ball play is the previous spot. Am I missing something?

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Scooby

This has been going around our association:
1st and 10 from A35, A1 drops back to pass, A78 holds at the 30 yard line. The pass is incomplete.
Many have said the penalty is enforced from the 30, resulting in 1st and 25 form the 20. I believe that it should be 1st and 20 from the 25. As the basic spot of a loose ball play is the previous spot. Am I missing something?

(NFHS rules assumed)
You're right about the basic spot being the previous spot. But the enforcement spot for a foul by the offense behind the basic spot is the spot of the foul. (All But One)

In NCAA rules, this would be penalized from the previous spot.

[ump33]

Originally Posted by Scooby

This has been going around our association:
1st and 10 from A35, A1 drops back to pass, A78 holds at the 30 yard line. The pass is incomplete.
Many have said the penalty is enforced from the 30, resulting in 1st and 25 form the 20. I believe that it should be 1st and 20 from the 25. As the basic spot of a loose ball play is the previous spot. Am I missing something?

Yes, All But One (NFHS)
10-6 ... Unless otherwise listed in Section 4 and 5, a penalty for a foul occurring during a play is enforced from the basic spot with the exception of a foul by the offense which occurs behind the basic spot during a loose ball play or running play. This particular foul is enforced from the spot of the foul.

CT1, I didn't mean to walk on your reply, you beat me to the post.

[maven]

I'm astonished that an association discussion of such a play would last more than 10 seconds. ABO is a fundamental concept in NFHS penalty enforcement, and this play is not complex.

Maybe somebody saw holding enforced from the previous spot in an NCAA game and is assuming it would be that way in NFHS too. Bad, lazy assumption.

[whitehat]

For many years this is one of those I wish the NF would change to match the college rule. Seems very unfair the way it is currently written, but we don't write them we just enforce them.

[bigjohn]

[I'm astonished that an association discussion of such a play would last more than 10 seconds. ABO is a fundamental concept in NFHS penalty enforcement, and this play is not complex.

Maybe somebody saw holding enforced from the previous spot in an NCAA game and is assuming it would be that way in NFHS too. Bad, lazy assumption.

Well I am not astonished one bit!!

But you know I see this from a different point of view!

[Rich]

As a fairly longtime white hat who has his nose in two rule books virtually year-round, it's just evidence that football is officiated by a fair number of people who thinks learning the rules is someone else's job.

I don't know of any other sport where people think that way to the same degree.

[HLin NC]

Many have said the penalty is enforced from the 30,

And the "many" are correct.

As for the dual level officials, I have found it is not uncommon to have to correct their enforcements from time to time.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by ump33

Yes, All But One (NFHS)
10-6 ... Unless otherwise listed in Section 4 and 5, a penalty for a foul occurring during a play is enforced from the basic spot with the exception of a foul by the offense which occurs behind the basic spot during a loose ball play or running play. This particular foul is enforced from the spot of the foul.

CT1, I didn't mean to walk on your reply, you beat me to the post.

Wait, I don't understand (again, I'm a fan, so haven't studied the rules). According the rule quote above (as I read it), the foul is enforced from the basic spot (which is the previous spot?) UNLESS the offense commits a foul behind the basic spot during a loose ball or running play. Do I have that right?

According to the OP, though, it's not a loose ball or running play, it's a passing play. So the exception doesn't come into play, right?

I'll readily admit my definitions may be off and I hope you forgive me as you correct me.

Thanks

[maven]

SamG: there are just 2 kinds of plays, running plays and loose ball plays. A legal forward pass is a loose ball play. Since the hold took place during action prior to a loose ball (the pass), it is a loose ball play, and the basic spot is the previous spot.

Almost all live-ball fouls are subject to "all-but-one," including the hold under discussion. The exceptions are things like roughing the passer and unsportsmanlike.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by SamG

According to the OP, though, it's not a loose ball or running play, it's a passing play. So the exception doesn't come into play, right?

There are only two types of plays (see 2-33-1), loose ball play and running play.

Which type of play is a "passing play"?

[SamG]

Originally Posted by maven

SamG: there are just 2 kinds of plays, running plays and loose ball plays. A legal forward pass is a loose ball play. Since the hold took place during action prior to a loose ball (the pass), it is a loose ball play, and the basic spot is the previous spot.

Almost all live-ball fouls are subject to "all-but-one," including the hold under discussion. The exceptions are things like roughing the passer and unsportsmanlike.

Thank you for the explanation.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by whitehat

For many years this is one of those I wish the NF would change to match the college rule. Seems very unfair the way it is currently written, but we don't write them we just enforce them.

This is one of the many cases where Fed has kept a provision long after NCAA & NFL changed it (in the 1970s for NFL, I think same decade though later in NCAA). The reason it looks unfair is because of the treatment of incomplete forward passes where no penalty applies. If you thought about it in terms of a completed forward pass, however, it wouldn't look as unfair if you compared a basic spot well beyond the spot of the foul thus produced vs. one produced by a running play. It also doesn't look unfair if you thought the foul prevented the would-be passer from being tackled for a loss, or possibly even having the ball stolen.

One could easily argue that in the case of an incomplete forward pass, there should be no penalty at all for illegal use of hands, if you similarly don't consider the possibility of a tackle for a loss.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by Suudy

There are only two types of plays (see 2-33-1), loose ball play and running play.

Which type of play is a "passing play"?

A passing play is one where a player attempts to throw the ball to another player.

I readily admitted in my post my definitions could be wrong. And pointing out the rule (2-33-1) doesn't help since I don't have access to the rule book. But I guess if it makes you feel better to talk down to me, go for it.

If that's not how you meant to come across, I apologize, that's the way your read to me.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by SamG

A passing play is one where a player attempts to throw the ball to another player.

I readily admitted in my post my definitions could be wrong. And pointing out the rule (2-33-1) doesn't help since I don't have access to the rule book. But I guess if it makes you feel better to talk down to me, go for it.

If that's not how you meant to come across, I apologize, that's the way your read to me.

Here ya go:

ART. 1 . . . A loose-ball play is action during:

a. A free kick or scrimmage kick other than post-scrimmage kick fouls.

b. A legal forward pass.

c. A backward pass (including the snap), an illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.

d. The run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble.


ART. 2 . . . A running play is any action not included in Article 1, including the related run as in 2-41-9a.