Kick play

[maven]

K, 4/6 from R’s 10 YL. On a FG attempt, holder K12 muffs the snap. K1 kicks the loose ball between the uprights. Ruling?

[RadioBlue]

2-24-4 (scrimmage kick definition) says a place kick must be controlled on the ground or a kicking tee by a teammate while 2-24-7 (place kick definition) says the ball may be controlled by a teammate. Article 7 goes on to say that a place kick may be used as a scrimmage kick. (Those definitions seem to contradict on another, no?) 2-24-7 also says that the ball must be in a fixed position to be kicked. Rule 9-7 only indicates it's illegal to intentionally kick a ball unless it is a free or scrimmage kick. I'd say it's entirely possible to legally kick the loose ball as long as it is completely stationary. Since the likelihood of that is quite small, I have IK on this play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

2-24-4 (scrimmage kick definition) says a place kick must be controlled on the ground or a kicking tee by a teammate while 2-24-7 (place kick definition) says the ball may be controlled by a teammate. Article 7 goes on to say that a place kick may be used as a scrimmage kick. (Those definitions seem to contradict on another, no?) 2-24-7 also says that the ball must be in a fixed position to be kicked. Rule 9-7 only indicates it's illegal to intentionally kick a ball unless it is a free or scrimmage kick. I'd say it's entirely possible to legally kick the loose ball as long as it is completely stationary. Since the likelihood of that is quite small, I have IK on this play.

Nope. The ball must be controlled to be a place kick. A scrimmage kick could also be a drop kick... but the OP does not describe a drop kick.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Nope. The ball must be controlled to be a place kick. A scrimmage kick could also be a drop kick... but the OP does not describe a drop kick.

I'm confused, Mike. The Rules Book clearly states in 2-24-7 that a place kick MAY be controlled by a teammate. My gut was to say this play is IK, but the darn rules tripped me up. What gives?

[maven]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

I'm confused, Mike. The Rules Book clearly states in 2-24-7 that a place kick MAY be controlled by a teammate. My gut was to say this play is IK, but the darn rules tripped me up. What gives?

The point is to permit a ball on a tee, with or without control by a holder. Kickoffs and FG attempts both generally involve a tee, but only the latter usually uses a holder. A ball in a "fixed position on the ground" is also permissible. These all count as place kicks.

A ball rolling on the ground is not in "place," and hence kicking it cannot be a "place kick." A ball that has rolled to a stop is not in a fixed position.

The play is clearly an illegal kick.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

2-24-4 (scrimmage kick definition) says a place kick must be controlled on the ground or a kicking tee by a teammate while 2-24-7 (place kick definition) says the ball may be controlled by a teammate. Article 7 goes on to say that a place kick may be used as a scrimmage kick. (Those definitions seem to contradict on another, no?) 2-24-7 also says that the ball must be in a fixed position to be kicked. Rule 9-7 only indicates it's illegal to intentionally kick a ball unless it is a free or scrimmage kick. I'd say it's entirely possible to legally kick the loose ball as long as it is completely stationary. Since the likelihood of that is quite small, I have IK on this play.

I agree with your reading, except that I don't see a contradiction between Fed 2-24 arts. 4 & 7. The sentence "For a place kick, the ball must be controlled on the ground or on a legal kicking tee by a teammate." was added to 2-24-4 to eliminate the possibility of a place kick out of an opponent's placement, as was the part in art. 7, "who shall be a teammate of the kicker." Previously a place kick could be made by an opponent of the player who placed the ball. The "also may" in art. 7 is poor wording for "may either".

The upshot of it is that for it to qualify as a place kick, the player who positioned the ball before it is kicked had to have had it in control and cannot have been an opponent of the kicker, and the ball must remain so positioned until kicked. It is possible for the ball to be loose and yet be place kicked, whether as a free or scrimmage kick, but as you point out, it cannot have moved from the spot where it became loose. In NCAA if it's a scrimmage kick, the place kick must be from the possession of a teammate of the kicker.

Interestingly, in neither code is it a place kick if a player in possession of a live ball placed it himself for the kick! I never realized that before. I wonder whether that would be ruled illegally kicking the ball or a drop kick.

[ump33]

Originally Posted by maven

K, 4/6 from R’s 10 YL. On a FG attempt, holder K12 muffs the snap. K1 kicks the loose ball between the uprights. Ruling?

Result of the play is a Touchback

or

Enforce the Illegal Kick from the Spot of the Foul (ABO) and replay the down. (not a wise choice for B/R)

[Robert Goodman]

Kicking a live loose ball is not "a kick" as defined in the major codes. Except in Canadian football, where it would be a dribble or flying kick (which cannot score a goal), the status of the ball would remain a backward pass (the snap) which has been given new impetus forward by team A. The snap has ended legally, so no problem there. K1 has committed illegal kicking of a ball during what would be a loose ball play in Fed, a running play in NCAA. The anomaly exists in NCAA that there is no "related run", the ball not having been possessed since it left the snapper's hands, but since the ball was probably never behind where it was kicked from, who cares? So in Fed if the penalty were accepted, A would repeat the down at B's 25, while in NCAA it would be loss of down & 10 yds. from the spot of the foul. If the penalty is declined, touchback.

In Canadian football, no penalty per se and the ball remains live. However, since 2010 in amateur football, if the resulting offside pass is not completed by an onside player of the kicking team, the receiving team has the option of having the down count with kicking team in possession at the spot of the kick.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

So in Fed if the penalty were accepted, A would repeat the down at B's 25,

Disagree. The foul by K is behind the basic spot (All But One). The enforcement spot is the spot of the foul, not the previous spot.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Disagree. The foul by K is behind the basic spot (All But One). The enforcement spot is the spot of the foul, not the previous spot.

Isn't this a loose ball play?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Suudy

Isn't this a loose ball play?

Yes it is, which means the basic spot is previous spot however the spot of the foul is still behind the basic spot. Therefore, enforcing via all but one, the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.

The penalty is enforced from the same spot in NFHS and NCAA.

[maven]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Kicking a live loose ball is not "a kick" as defined in the major codes.

False. NFHS defines a kick as the intentional striking of the ball with the knee, lower leg, or foot. 2-24-1

[HLin NC]

Kicking a live loose ball is not "a kick" as defined in the major codes.

How can you have an illegal kick if its not kicked?

NFHS 2-24 ART. 9 . . . An illegal kick is any intentional striking of the ball with the knee, lower leg or foot which does not comply with Articles 3 and 4. When the ball is loose following an illegal kick, it is treated as a fumble.
Perhaps the last sentence is throwing you?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by maven

False. NFHS defines a kick as the intentional striking of the ball with the knee, lower leg, or foot. 2-24-1

This is true the act is kicking the ball but the play is not a kick. The rules for a kick, such as a kick breaking the plane of Team R's endzone, are not in effect.

A loose ball illegally kicked retains the same status as it had prior to being kicked.

[maven]

Originally Posted by Welpe

This is true the act is kicking the ball but the play is not a kick. The rules for a kick, such as a kick breaking the plane of Team R's endzone, are not in effect.

A loose ball illegally kicked retains the same status as it had prior to being kicked.

True. 'A kick' is ambiguous between the name of an act and a live-ball status.

Illegal kicks are kicks in the first sense but not the second. If Robert intended the second sense, then he was right to say that an illegal kick is not a 'kick': can't score, is not a TB when crossing R's GL, etc.