Kick play

[Robert Goodman]

Kicking a live loose ball is not "a kick" as defined in the major codes. Except in Canadian football, where it would be a dribble or flying kick (which cannot score a goal), the status of the ball would remain a backward pass (the snap) which has been given new impetus forward by team A. The snap has ended legally, so no problem there. K1 has committed illegal kicking of a ball during what would be a loose ball play in Fed, a running play in NCAA. The anomaly exists in NCAA that there is no "related run", the ball not having been possessed since it left the snapper's hands, but since the ball was probably never behind where it was kicked from, who cares? So in Fed if the penalty were accepted, A would repeat the down at B's 25, while in NCAA it would be loss of down & 10 yds. from the spot of the foul. If the penalty is declined, touchback.

In Canadian football, no penalty per se and the ball remains live. However, since 2010 in amateur football, if the resulting offside pass is not completed by an onside player of the kicking team, the receiving team has the option of having the down count with kicking team in possession at the spot of the kick.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

So in Fed if the penalty were accepted, A would repeat the down at B's 25,

Disagree. The foul by K is behind the basic spot (All But One). The enforcement spot is the spot of the foul, not the previous spot.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Disagree. The foul by K is behind the basic spot (All But One). The enforcement spot is the spot of the foul, not the previous spot.

Isn't this a loose ball play?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Suudy

Isn't this a loose ball play?

Yes it is, which means the basic spot is previous spot however the spot of the foul is still behind the basic spot. Therefore, enforcing via all but one, the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.

The penalty is enforced from the same spot in NFHS and NCAA.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Yes it is, which means the basic spot is previous spot however the spot of the foul is still behind the basic spot. Therefore, enforcing via all but one, the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.

Doh! I somehow glossed over the kick being behind the LOS.

But can we clarify an illegal kick beyond the LOS by A? Two scenarios:

• 1st and 10 at the A20. A10 takes a handoff and runs forward to the A30 where he fumbles. A10 then intentionally kicks the ball at the A32 and the ball goes out of bounds at the A32.

The basic spot is the end of the related run at the A30. The spot of the foul for an illegal kick is at the A32. The basic spot is behind the spot of the foul, so we enforce the IK from the A30.

• 1st and 10 at the A20. A10 takes a handoff and runs forward to the A30 where he fumbles. A10 then intentionally kicks the ball at the A28 and the ball goes out of bounds at the A28.

The basic spot is the end of the related run at the A30. The spot of the foul for an illegal kick is at the A28. The spot of the foul is behind the basic spot so we enforce the IK from the A28.

Yes?

[maven]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Kicking a live loose ball is not "a kick" as defined in the major codes.

False. NFHS defines a kick as the intentional striking of the ball with the knee, lower leg, or foot. 2-24-1

[HLin NC]

Kicking a live loose ball is not "a kick" as defined in the major codes.

How can you have an illegal kick if its not kicked?

NFHS 2-24 ART. 9 . . . An illegal kick is any intentional striking of the ball with the knee, lower leg or foot which does not comply with Articles 3 and 4. When the ball is loose following an illegal kick, it is treated as a fumble.
Perhaps the last sentence is throwing you?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by maven

False. NFHS defines a kick as the intentional striking of the ball with the knee, lower leg, or foot. 2-24-1

This is true the act is kicking the ball but the play is not a kick. The rules for a kick, such as a kick breaking the plane of Team R's endzone, are not in effect.

A loose ball illegally kicked retains the same status as it had prior to being kicked.

[maven]

Originally Posted by Welpe

This is true the act is kicking the ball but the play is not a kick. The rules for a kick, such as a kick breaking the plane of Team R's endzone, are not in effect.

A loose ball illegally kicked retains the same status as it had prior to being kicked.

True. 'A kick' is ambiguous between the name of an act and a live-ball status.

Illegal kicks are kicks in the first sense but not the second. If Robert intended the second sense, then he was right to say that an illegal kick is not a 'kick': can't score, is not a TB when crossing R's GL, etc.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by maven

True. 'A kick' is ambiguous between the name of an act and a live-ball status.

Illegal kicks are kicks in the first sense but not the second. If Robert intended the second sense, then he was right to say that an illegal kick is not a 'kick': can't score, is not a TB when crossing R's GL, etc.

Well see, what they wound up doing for the latter purpose was breaking out everything into free & scrimmage kicks, then defining those individually as "legal kicks". I think their former language, and NCAA's still, is easier to follow.

Fed & NCAA used to have substantive differences between illegal kicks and illegal kicking. They don't any longer, do they? Seems Fed could save some words by dropping the word "legal", in which case the various types of kick, as well as the status of the ball, and all the substantive provisions regarding balls kicked legally & illegally would remain the same, unless I'm missing something. An illegal kick would result from kicking the ball in any way other than "a kick", because all the kicks are now defined according to the circumstances under which they may be done legally.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by maven

False. NFHS defines a kick as the intentional striking of the ball with the knee, lower leg, or foot. 2-24-1

I checked and you're right. Previously Fed had defined "a kick" only by inference as the product of the "kicks classified as to origin", while NCAA had had a separate definition of "kicking the ball" (as above for Fed's of "a kick" currently), which phrase was then used in their definitions of the types of kicks. This is why NFHS now has to have their language "a legal kick" in the various places they use it for referring to the status of a loose ball.

[maven]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I checked and you're right.

Meh, don't roll so fast.

2-1-3:
"A loose ball is a pass, fumble or a kick. The terms 'pass', 'fumble' and 'kick' are sometimes used as abbreviations when the ball is loose following the acts of passing, fumbling or kicking the ball. "