Horse-Collar Tackle

[jdmara]

Fed

Originally Posted by 9-4-3k

(No player or nonplayer shall...)grab the inside back or side collar of the shoulder pads or jersey of the runner and subsequently pull (backward or sideward) that opponent to the ground (horse-collar), even if possession is lost. The horse-collar foul is enforced as a live-ball foul

This rule came up for discussion in a local meeting. It seems pretty clear by rule and casebook that if B grabs A by the back or side of the collar of the shoulder pads (or jersey) and subsequently is brought down (either inbounds or out of bounds) we administer that as a live-ball foul.

Taking it one iteration further, what do we have if the initial grab over the collar is after the runner clearly crosses the sideline? Do we still assess this as a live-ball foul or do we then have a dead-ball personal foul for a late hit/unnecessary roughness? The argument against calling this a live ball foul is that once the runner is clearly across the sideline, they are no longer a runner.

Just wanted to gather some thoughts

-Josh

[HLin NC]

That issue got addressed a year or two after the horse collar tackle rule was imposed. Treat it as a live ball foul.

If you'll enter "horse collar" in the "Search This Forum" tab on the main page, you will probably find ample old discussion about it.

2012 Case Book
9.4.3 SITUATION O: A1 is carrying the ball when B1 grabs him by the back or
side of the collar of the shoulder pads (or jersey). A1 then: (a) fumbles the ball
and is subsequently brought to the ground by B1; (b) crosses the goal line to
score a touchdown and is then brought down by B1; or (c) crosses the sideline
and is then brought down by B1. RULING: In (a), (b) and (c), a horse-collar foul
should be called.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

That issue got addressed a year or two after the horse collar tackle rule was imposed. Treat it as a live ball foul.

If you'll enter "horse collar" in the "Search This Forum" tab on the main page, you will probably find ample old discussion about it.

2012 Case Book
9.4.3 SITUATION O: A1 is carrying the ball when B1 grabs him by the back or
side of the collar of the shoulder pads (or jersey). A1 then: (a) fumbles the ball
and is subsequently brought to the ground by B1; (b) crosses the goal line to
score a touchdown and is then brought down by B1; or (c) crosses the sideline
and is then brought down by B1. RULING: In (a), (b) and (c), a horse-collar foul
should be called.

I am aware of that case play and read through a lot of the discussions. What doesn't seem to be addressed is when the Horse-collar is initiated (grab of the pad or jersey) after the runner crosses the sideline. I do believe we should call it a live ball foul BUT I understand the counter argument as well.

-Josh

[JRutledge]

I believe you call it when the action started. Them no longer being a runner is really not relevant anymore if you think of it. Because one of the examples involves a fumble, which would eliminate the possibility of the player being a runner. I think I would call this a live ball if the action started during a live ball and ended after it is technically dead. But I think an argument can be made you call it when the tackle is completed.

Peace

[HLin NC]

If he was well out of bounds, then you would have a DBPF. I wouldn't split hairs if its close though.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

If he was well out of bounds, then you would have a DBPF. I wouldn't split hairs if its close though.

Agreed

-Josh

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

If he was well out of bounds, then you would have a DBPF. I wouldn't split hairs if its close though.

Agreed. Any tackle after the runner is out of bounds would likely be a DBPF. This was true before the horse collar became a tackle. Last year's clarification of live ball was primarily focused on the situation where the collar is grabbed while the runner is still in bounds but the tackle is completed after the runner goes out of bounds. Some weren't clear on whether that was a live ball or dead ball foul.

[Official]

Does the runner have to actually be brought to the ground to classify as a horse collar?

[HLin NC]

k. Grab the inside back or side collar of the shoulder pads or jersey of the runner and subsequently pull (backward or sideward) that opponent to the ground (Horse-collar), even if possession is lost. The horse-collar foul is enforced as a live-ball foul.

[maven]

Originally Posted by Official

Does the runner have to actually be brought to the ground to classify as a horse collar?

That's just it. The name of the foul is "horse collar tackle." No tackle, no foul.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: But remember that if he is grabbed clearly after he's crossed the sideline and then brought to the ground, it can't be a 'horse collar tackle.' You're perfectly justified in calling it a DBPF, but it can't be a horse collar since by definition a HCT is committed against a "runner" and once he crosses the sideline he's no longer a runner.

[ajmc]

Damn those Rule 2 details. NF 2-32-13, "A runner is a player who is in possession of a LIVE ball or is simulating possession of a LIVE ball."

NF: 2-41-5, "The out-of bounds Spot is where the ball becomes DEAD because of going out-of bounds, as in 4-3-1, 2, 3.