PF Ejection

[Suudy]

I watched a crew last night (game after mine) that had a PF ejection. I didn't see what happened, but I saw the U throw a flag and loudly and forcefully tell B70 "You are done. Get off the field and don't come back." The R signaled dead-ball personal foul with an ejection.

After the game, I went over and chatted with them. Turns out that in the pile after the end of the play B70 grabbed and twisted A33's (the runner) junk. R signaled the PF and the ejection then went over and chatted with the coach. Seems the coach wasn't overly concerned (they said he just shrugged and said "Huh. Ok.").

The writeup for the state should be fun!

A few points/questions.

First, this certainly seems an ejectable offence to me. No question. But from a rules standpoint, I guess you call it "flagrant"?

Second, in discussion we found it odd that the coach was so unconcerned. I remember my playing days when a buddy of mine was ejected for a similar offense (punched a guy in the balls while in the pile). My buddy denied it for weeks before admitting that he had done it. But at the time, I think the only people that knew it really happend was the official, my buddy, and the opponent. Yet our coach blasted my friend and he sat for 2 weeks, had a ton of bear crawls, and never really seemed to get on the coach's good side again. That was the kind of response at least I would have expected from a coach.

Finally, the ejected player walked off the field into the locker room and later returned in street clothes. If I remember correctly, ejected players are to remain in the team area. I seem to recall some point of emphasis (10 years ago?) about disqualified players remaining with the team, on the bus, or otherwise supervised. I know we aren't really going to enforce this, but does that ring a bell?

Sigh. Well, I guess more of a rant. While that kind of behavior certainly did occur during my playing days, when discovered it was harshly treated. I hope not all coaches are as nonchalant as last night's coach.

[bigjohn]

definitely VULGAR!

c. Flagrant—a foul so severe or extreme that it places an opponent in danger
of serious injury, and/or involves violations that are extremely or persistently vulgar or abusive conduct.

[JRutledge]

This is certainly a flagrant act IMO. And seriously if he hits the opponent right, he can cause a lot of harm (more then the thought of what it feels like to be hit there).

Now there is no rule that states a player must leave the field. A coach is a different story, they are adults. But you do not ever direct kids to go off the field, not that is necessarily what the officials told the team to do. I am not a fan of what you overheard the officials say out loud, but there is nothing in the rules that gives us the right to remove a player from the team area. Now if they become a problem then I would have the coach do something to remedy the situation, but it is on them to take that action. I know in basketball the rules are very clear that an ejected player should not be removed unless they are accompanied by an adult outside of the gym. That is the best guideline I have seen given for these kinds of situations. And the NF tends to take similar stances in rules of different sports for similar situations of sportsmanship and ejections. I do not remember the POE, but I have never heard that it was our right to remove a player the same way we would remove a coach.

Peace

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I know in basketball the rules are very clear that an ejected player should not be removed unless they are accompanied by an adult outside of the gym. That is the best guideline I have seen given for these kinds of situations.

This is what I mean. I don't think the U meant for the player to leave the stadium and return to the locker room, but that he wouldn't be coming back into the game again.

My question was as you pointed out above. Disqualified players are to remain supervised, either on the team sideline or leave with an adult. The point here was I guess R noticed that the player was no longer in the bench area. I think the coach sent the player to the locker room to change. We don't know if he was supervised.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And the NF tends to take similar stances in rules of different sports for similar situations of sportsmanship and ejections. I do not remember the POE, but I have never heard that it was our right to remove a player the same way we would remove a coach.

I worded my post poorly. I didn't mean that it was a POE to remove the player altogether from the event. Rather, wasn't it a POE that the player remain with the team or remain supervised?

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

definitely VULGAR!

c. Flagrant—a foul so severe or extreme that it places an opponent in danger
of serious injury, and/or involves violations that are extremely or persistently vulgar or abusive conduct.

So, coach, if a player was ejected for something like this, what would your response have been? If you didn't see it, and the player denied it, would you defer to the officials' judgement?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Suudy

This is what I mean. I don't think the U meant for the player to leave the stadium and return to the locker room, but that he wouldn't be coming back into the game again.

I just think that is a poor choice of words on his part. He probably did not mean it that way, but he just should tell the Referee and let the Referee explain in his presentation he is disqualified from the game.

Originally Posted by Suudy

My question was as you pointed out above. Disqualified players are to remain supervised, either on the team sideline or leave with an adult. The point here was I guess R noticed that the player was no longer in the bench area. I think the coach sent the player to the locker room to change. We don't know if he was supervised.

Not our problem. If the team sends him to the locker room, that is on them. I only know of basketball making this clear in their interpretations on how to handle these situations. Otherwise if the kid goes to the locker room, that is on the team to allow that or not.

Originally Posted by Suudy

I worded my post poorly. I didn't mean that it was a POE to remove the player altogether from the event. Rather, wasn't it a POE that the player remain with the team or remain supervised?

I think I understood what you meant. I am not totally sure how this was addressed or if it was a POE or not. It might have been in the Pre-Season Guide or some other form of literature. I just know that the NF does not treat these things like the NCAA and NFL (or other pro leagues).

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Are the game officials supposed to be baby sitters?

It was bad enough as discussed in the tobacco thread, but is Fed actually meddling in things like transport'n to & from events?! Even if they don't make the game officials responsible, it just seems like a bizarre detail for a national federation to get involved with. Even for state athletic ass'ns that seems like back seat driving.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Are the game officials supposed to be baby sitters?

It was bad enough as discussed in the tobacco thread, but is Fed actually meddling in things like transport'n to & from events?! Even if they don't make the game officials responsible, it just seems like a bizarre detail for a national federation to get involved with. Even for state athletic ass'ns that seems like back seat driving.

The NF is saying that we are not to require D'Qd players off the field like other levels require. If teams want to do so that is on them.

And this has nothing to do with the tobacco debate at all. You just want to muddy the waters unnecessarily.

Peace

[bigjohn]

So, coach, if a player was ejected for something like this, what would your response have been? If you didn't see it, and the player denied it, would you defer to the officials' judgement?

All I can say is it depends.

Most kids lie, I usually know the ones that don't. As a rule I would tell the kid "the official saw it and you are done for this game and next week."

[HLin NC]

I've been calling since '94 and I don't recall any POE about what to do or where an ejected player goes. I think you are confusing with an ejected coach.

Once an ejected player steps off the field, he's the head coach and school administration's problem to figure out.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

I've been calling since '94 and I don't recall any POE about what to do or where an ejected player goes. I think you are confusing with an ejected coach.

That must be it. I recall it being about ejections. And now that you mention it, I think I do remember the change about coaches.

Thanks for the reminder.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

All I can say is it depends.

Most kids lie, I usually know the ones that don't. As a rule I would tell the kid "the official saw it and you are done for this game and next week."

Not that it matters from an officiating point of view, but what would happen beyond that? Any particular punishment (extra running, bear crawls, and long chat about his conduct and future with the team, etc)?

And in your area, how do you think other coaches would handle this?

I'll say for the most part the coaches here are pretty even keel guys. Most are also teachers/administrators at the schools and have an interest that goes beyond just winning games. There's only one school (at the varsity level) where we wonder about the sportsmanship of the team which we think is hampered by the coaching.

Just curious what your (and perhaps everyone else's) experience with coaches is on these types of things.

[whitehat]

I realize this is not the emphasis of the OP but...

[/QUOTE] but I saw the U throw a flag and loudly and forcefully tell B70 "You are done. Get off the field and don't come back."[/QUOTE]

I am thinking, if correctly represented in the OP, that the U was out of line "loudly and forcefully telling the player to get off...etc"
We are not baseball umps who stand toe to toe with players or coaches and bump hats with raised voices. An official who is yelling has lost control and credibility.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by whitehat

I am thinking, if correctly represented in the OP, that the U was out of line "loudly and forcefully telling the player to get off...etc"
We are not baseball umps who stand toe to toe with players or coaches and bump hats with raised voices. An official who is yelling has lost control and credibility.

It was loud enough to hear in the stands. And I know the U. He isn't likely to go half-cocked. I can get clarification next time I see him. But it seemed to me more like taking-charge-of-the-situation type loud and forceful, not screaming loud. At least how it seemed to me. Shrug.

[whitehat]

roger that Suudy, probably the case :-)