Tobacco

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by miller1276

IMO you need to stop looking for trouble on the sideline and focus on the game and player safety.

Most of us agree with you, especially wrt the rules we're discussing here.

But we didn't write the rule that makes us look for trouble on the sideline.

[bigjohn]

So the AC has to spit juice on you to draw a flag?? Just asking how far you let it go??

[Forksref]

The purpose of the rule? Adults in a learning environment such as a school setting, should be exhibiting good health practices. If we don't allow it in the school building then we should not allow it in the athletic environment. The NFHS believes in this concept, thus the rule. If you think it is none of our business as officials then you should consider that we are working with young people in an educational setting. This is not the NFL. And we are all in this together, officials, coaches, parents, trainers, administrators and players.

The reason that the entire crew was with the coach was because it happened to be that the crew and the coach were close to each other walking off the field. The crew suspected a problem and raised the issue with the head coach, who apparently was aware of prior behavior by this assistant coach. What happened with that coach, we don't know. I think the situation was handled appropriately.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

So the AC has to spit juice on you to draw a flag?? Just asking how far you let it go??

Nobody is saying not to flag it. Some are saying that it's absurd that we have to police this though.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Nobody is saying not to flag it. Some are saying that it's absurd that we have to police this though.

I think he was responding to CT1's suggestion that the rule is there so we can flag a coach who sprays us with tobacco spit.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Forksref

The purpose of the rule? Adults in a learning environment such as a school setting, should be exhibiting good health practices.

If that were the case, they wouldn't allow football at all! Seriously, far more people are injured playing football than chewing tobacco or using wet snuff. People banging into other people is definitely a bad health practice.

I mean seriously, here you have someone using tobacco in a way that hardly exhibits it at all, and in the same general area you have a crowd of people who are definitely being exhibited banging into each other? It hardly compares!

And you're saying it's a "learning environment" just because it's on the school's real estate and/or involves students at a particular school. It really has nothing to do with learning per se. The whole thing is stretched beyond belief in your statement.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

If that were the case, they wouldn't allow football at all! Seriously, far more people are injured playing football than chewing tobacco or using wet snuff. People banging into other people is definitely a bad health practice.

I mean seriously, here you have someone using tobacco in a way that hardly exhibits it at all, and in the same general area you have a crowd of people who are definitely being exhibited banging into each other? It hardly compares!

And you're saying it's a "learning environment" just because it's on the school's real estate and/or involves students at a particular school. It really has nothing to do with learning per se. The whole thing is stretched beyond belief in your statement.

Forgive me but I have never known many football players from high school to have very serious injuries as a whole. People die of Cancer all the time in this country and tobacco products are one of the biggest reasons for that disease. I guess we better stop playing soccer, because girls get more concussions playing that sport then any other sport. Cheerleading has more serious injuries then just about any other activity across the board. All these activities take place in schools. Only the chess or debate teams have no risk of serious injury. And I am sure if a light falls from the ceiling and hits someone in the head in those activities somewhere. I would not compare outlawing a drug that is known to be linked to a disease to a sport kids might play or not play and most come out fine. I played football and had no serious injuries as a result. I was fortunate not to have any playing 3 sports at some point in varsity, but that is a bad analogy on your part to not understand why things are outlawed.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Forgive me but I have never known many football players from high school to have very serious injuries as a whole. People die of Cancer all the time in this country and tobacco products are one of the biggest reasons for that disease. I guess we better stop playing soccer, because girls get more concussions playing that sport then any other sport. Cheerleading has more serious injuries then just about any other activity across the board. All these activities take place in schools. Only the chess or debate teams have no risk of serious injury. And I am sure if a light falls from the ceiling and hits someone in the head in those activities somewhere. I would not compare outlawing a drug that is known to be linked to a disease to a sport kids might play or not play and most come out fine. I played football and had no serious injuries as a result. I was fortunate not to have any playing 3 sports at some point in varsity, but that is a bad analogy on your part to not understand why things are outlawed.

Peace

I've never been in such complete agreement with you, Jeff.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Forksref

The purpose of the rule? Adults in a learning environment such as a school setting, should be exhibiting good health practices. If we don't allow it in the school building then we should not allow it in the athletic environment. The NFHS believes in this concept, thus the rule. If you think it is none of our business as officials then you should consider that we are working with young people in an educational setting. This is not the NFL. And we are all in this together, officials, coaches, parents, trainers, administrators and players.

Yes, we are. That's why administrators should be the ones insuring that their employees are not using tobacco products around students.

There's no NFHS football rule regarding the use of alcohol by a coach who is on the sideline. Why should we flag a coach for dip in his front lip but not alcohol on his breath or for being high? Why isn't there a rule against all the other things a coach could use that would set a poor example before young impressionable minds? Why? Because it's expected that the school has policies that will address this. Tobacco should be no different. Instead, it's an exception to everything else that a coach should not be using on the sideline.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Yes, we are. That's why administrators should be the ones insuring that their employees are not using tobacco products around students.

There's no NFHS football rule regarding the use of alcohol by a coach who is on the sideline. Why should we flag a coach for dip in his front lip but not alcohol on his breath or for being high? Why isn't there a rule against all the other things a coach could use that would set a poor example before young impressionable minds? Why? Because it's expected that the school has policies that will address this. Tobacco should be no different. Instead, it's an exception to everything else that a coach should not be using on the sideline.

There is an easy answer for that. One has been openly used in sporting situations and the other have not been. I have never (and I doubt you have ever) seen anyone drink a beer on the sideline of any sporting event. I have seen coaches back when I played use dip all the time. And in some cases players used those things.

And what should be or what shouldn't be are two different things. Those are the rules.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is an easy answer for that. One has been openly used in sporting situations and the other have not been. I have never (and I doubt you have ever) seen anyone drink a beer on the sideline of any sporting event. I have seen coaches back when I played use dip all the time. And in some cases players used those things.

And what should be or what shouldn't be are two different things. Those are the rules.

Peace

Agreed. My first thought is that chewing tobacco has been part of the culture of outdoor sports forever; especially baseball. It's long been considered acceptable in that environment. That said, I still find it curious.

My head is spinning.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Forgive me but I have never known many football players from high school to have very serious injuries as a whole. People die of Cancer all the time in this country and tobacco products are one of the biggest reasons for that disease. I guess we better stop playing soccer, because girls get more concussions playing that sport then any other sport. Cheerleading has more serious injuries then just about any other activity across the board. All these activities take place in schools. Only the chess or debate teams have no risk of serious injury. And I am sure if a light falls from the ceiling and hits someone in the head in those activities somewhere. I would not compare outlawing a drug that is known to be linked to a disease to a sport kids might play or not play and most come out fine. I played football and had no serious injuries as a result. I was fortunate not to have any playing 3 sports at some point in varsity, but that is a bad analogy on your part to not understand why things are outlawed.

Statistics would show more injuries per participant for football than for chewing tobacco; I don't think it'd even be close, in fact. And yeah, even more for cheerleading. Sports are linked to injuries like drugs are; if you wanted to compare them for safety stats, and think that is the reason they're outlawed, then you'd wind up wondering!

OK, I Googled, taking the 1st appropriate hits that came up for terms I put in. 2001-6 in the USA...

football (touch & tackle combined): 21.92 injuries per 1,000 participants per year
moist snuff + chewing tobacco: 30.4 excess mouth or throat cancers per 100,000 users/yr.

LISTSERV 15.5 - SCOUTS-L Archives
Tobacco Truth: I’m a Smokeless Tobacco User – Will I Get Mouth Cancer?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have never (and I doubt you have ever) seen anyone drink a beer on the sideline of any sporting event.

Are we in different worlds?

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Are we in different worlds?

He means HS sportting event.

And if I smelled alcohol on a coaches breath I would tell the head coach that that assistant has to go.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Statistics would show more injuries per participant for football than for chewing tobacco; I don't think it'd even be close, in fact. And yeah, even more for cheerleading. Sports are linked to injuries like drugs are; if you wanted to compare them for safety stats, and think that is the reason they're outlawed, then you'd wind up wondering!

OK, I Googled, taking the 1st appropriate hits that came up for terms I put in. 2001-6 in the USA...

football (touch & tackle combined): 21.92 injuries per 1,000 participants per year
moist snuff + chewing tobacco: 30.4 excess mouth or throat cancers per 100,000 users/yr.

LISTSERV 15.5 - SCOUTS-L Archives
Tobacco Truth: I’m a Smokeless Tobacco User – Will I Get Mouth Cancer?

That is all wonderful, but what about smoking tobacco? After all all of it is outlawed or illegal on a school property. And if it is used on campus it is illegal in many places period by the law, not by officials.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Are we in different worlds?

Yes, if you think on this site I am talking about anything other then high school sports. And even in college sports it is not allowed to have tobacco on campus or in a building.

But hey, keep hope alive if you think the rule is going to change anytime soon. And at the NCAA level it is also been outlawed to use such things by players and participants. And I have been to enough college sporting events for college or NCAA and they will not even sell alcohol in the building. Been to the Big Ten Tournament in both the Indianapolis and Chicago and they would not sell alcohol in the confines of the United Center and Conseco Fieldhouse. I went to the Final Four in Atlanta this spring and they did not sell alcohol there either. These things are not accepted other then pro sports and they cannot even use those things in many pro sports.

Peace