PAT Holder

[Adam]

Doesn't the exception only apply if the kick is attempted? If he gets up, he has to get his knee up before he catches the snap. Right?

Disregard. I was wrong.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Adam

Doesn't the exception only apply if the kick is attempted? If he gets up, he has to get his knee up before he catches the snap. Right?

Wrong on both.

In fact it would be hard to figure a situation where the kick is attempted and he's still holding the ball! You mean the kicker wiffed? Actually if the kicker did wiff, then there'd no longer be anyone in position to kick the ball, so if he were still holding the ball and had a knee down, it would be dead.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Wrong on both.

In fact it would be hard to figure a situation where the kick is attempted and he's still holding the ball! You mean the kicker wiffed? Actually if the kicker did wiff, then there'd no longer be anyone in position to kick the ball, so if he were still holding the ball and had a knee down, it would be dead.

I wasn't clear. If the holder catches the snap on his knee and then stands up for a fake, isn't the ball dead?

Never mind. Just pulled the book out of my car. Not sure where I got that misinterpretation.

[HLin NC]

Doesn't the exception only apply if the kick is attempted? If he gets up, he has to get his knee up before he catches the snap. Right?

Wrong, he must rise to advance, pass, or hand the ball.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Wrong, he must rise to advance, pass, or hand the ball.

It's only in Fed that he has to rise before handing, passing, or kicking the ball. NFL & CFL might even allow crawling to advance it; not sure whether their prohibitions on crawling apply to players who weren't already down.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Wrong on both.

In fact it would be hard to figure a situation where the kick is attempted and he's still holding the ball! You mean the kicker wiffed? Actually if the kicker did wiff, then there'd no longer be anyone in position to kick the ball, so if he were still holding the ball and had a knee down, it would be dead.

I beg to differ, Robert. As you may note from the quoting of 4.2.2 and the Exception above, the requirement for "with a teammate in kicking position" relates to, "The ball remains live if, at the snap.

A teammate in a kicking position, at the snap, who fakes (or otherwise "wiffs" a kick), does NOT kill the ball or prevent the holder who, "rises to advance, hand, kick or pass" from doing so.