PSK questions (sorry long)

[sm_bbcoach]

4th and 4 from K's 35. K commits an illegal shift, ball snapped. K-15 punts ball then (a) while ball is in air R-10 holds at R's 31. R-34 catches ball at R's 15, runs back to R's 22. -OR-(b) R-34 catches ball at R's 15, runs back to R's 22 and during run back, R-65 holds at R's 27 -OR- (c) K-15 hesitates, takes 1 step to his left then punts the ball and R-84 holds K-25 at K's 40 BEFORE the punt is made

Do we have a double foul in situation (a) or (c)? The ruling of a double foul is that both teams committ fouls during same live ballsituation, but no change of possesion. There is clearly a change of possesion here. (a) is a PSK enforcement So how is this play enforced? What if R was to decline the ill shift. IS R's PSK foul in (a) considered before the final change of possesion

In situation(b), this a running play foul (NO PSK) since it happened after possesion changed (end of the kick). The enforcement spot at the 22 correct?

Is (c) considered a PSK enforcement? If it is not PSK, then is this where R can decline the ill shift, penalize for the hold, and keep the ball? Or is this a foul during a "loose ball play" it includes all the runs which preceed it?

It happened on a kick play but BEFORE the kick happened. If is not becasue it was before the kick occured, how can your wing officials determine if it was before /after the kick. All I can find in the rules is that it happend before the kick ends. What if it happend before the kick happens? Or did NF intend it to be at anytime on a kick play before the kick happens?

[Mike Simonds]

(a) R can accept the penalty for K's foul. Double foul. Replay the down from the previous spot.

Or, (a) R can decline K's foul and have their penalty enforced from the end of the kick. R's ball 1st and 10 from R's 7 1/2 yard line.

(c) Remember the definition for a loose ball play includes the action that precedes the kick. So the result of the play should be the same as R's two choices in (a).

You are correct, (b) is just a normal penalty against R after the kick ended. R can decline K's foul and retain possession after their foul is penalized.

[KWH]

Answers
Situation A:
1) If the R captain accepts the K penalty, then the K captain will undoubtably accept the R penalty creating a "double foul" and the penalties will offset.
2) If the R captain declines the K penalty, then the K captain will undoubtably accept the R penalty, if this is the case then PSK applies. Since the kick ended at the R15, this becomes our new basic spot. The 10 yard holding penalty is enforced from the R15 (Half the distance applies) and the result of the play is 1st and 10 for R at the R7 1/2 yard line.

Situation B:
PSK is not applicable during this play because the R foul DID NOT OCCUR during the scrimmage kick, rather it occured after the scrimmage kick had ended.
1) If the R captain accepts the K penalty, then the K captain will undoubtably accept the R penalty creating a "double foul" and the penalties will offset.
2) If the R captain declines the K penalty, then the K captain will undoubtably accept the R penalty, if this is the case then the "All but one principal" applies. Since the foul occured during a running play the end of the run becomes our new basic spot. The 10 yard holding penalty is enforced from the R22 and the result of the play is 1st and 10 for R at the R12 yard line.

Situation C:
PSK is not applicable during this play because the R foul DID NOT OCCUR during the scrimmage kick, rather it occured prior to scrimmage kick.
You however failed to give the result of the play. For this reason I will assume then that R7 fielded the ball and returned it for an apparent TD.
1) If the R captain accepts the K penalty, then the K captain will undoubtably accept the R penalty creating a "double foul" and the penalties will offset.
2) If the R captain declines the K penalty, then the K captain will undoubtably accept the R penalty, if this is the case then the "All but one principal" applies. Since the foul occured during a "loose ball play" the previous spot becomes the basic spot. The 10 yard holding penalty would be enforced from the previous spot and the result of the play would be 1st and 10 for K on the K45.

I hope this helps

[Mike Simonds]

The way I understand PSK is that the offense is giving up possession by punting. So this is an exception to the loose ball penalty enforcement rule and a slight modification to the double foul/change of possession/clean hands doctrine.

As long as the 4 requirements for PSK are met, R can retain possession of the ball when they decline K's foul and accept penalization of their foul.

The 4 requirements for PSK are:

R fouls on their side of the expanded neutral zone before the end of the kick (can be before or during the kick).
K makes a legal scrimmage kick that crosses the neutral zone.
The kick ends beyond the neutral zone (on R's side).
R is in team possession at the end of the down.

I think discussing these plays are good exercise. Hope I got it right...

[Mike Simonds]

My understanding is that PSK would apply because the loose ball play (the kick) also includes the action that takes place prior to the kick...

Let me know what you think...

I'll be back from my "lunch crunch" exercise class at the YMCA in about 2 hours.

[KWH]

Originally posted by Mike Simonds
My understanding is that PSK would apply because the loose ball play (the kick) also includes the action that takes place prior to the kick...

Let me know what you think...

I'll be back from my "lunch crunch" exercise class at the YMCA in about 2 hours.

Mike-
My understanding is that your understanding is "incorrect"!
PSK is not in effect BEFORE OR AFTER the scrimmage kick!
The NFHS has stated that it may take 2 to 3 years to work the bug's out of PSK enforcment. The 2003 Rules book and 2003 Case Book wording(s) have conflicts and are confusing.
1) The 2003 rule book in 2-16-2g states "...during a scrimmage kick..."
2) The case book unfortunatly provides no help
3) The NFHS/Referee "FOOTBALL GUIDE 2003" which you should have (or will soon) recieved in the mail clears your play up on page 7 Play 11:
I will reprint it for your convieniance:
Play 11:
Team K's ball, fourth and 10 from it's own 20 yardline. K1 muffs the snap, but gets off a legal kick that goes out of bounds at the 50 yard line. While the ball is loose on the muffed snap, R2 grabs but does not twist K3's facemask at K's 30 yardline.
Ruling:
PSK does not apply because the foul occured before the kick crossed the expanded neutral zone. If K accepts the five-yard penalty, it is enforced from the previous spot and results in fourth and five for K from it's own 25 yardline.

Because the NFHS has written the rule this way it makes it different from the NCAA version. This fact along with the fact that the NFHS Rule Books wordings are "very grey" (to be kind) will make for 2003 a year to remember long meetings nights of discussion over a play that in reality happens 3 times in 1000 punts.

I am also working on a "PSK Simplified" webpage. Check out the work in progress at:
http://www.pfoa.us/index.asp?page=interp

I hope this helps clear up the mud...
-Kevin

[sm_bbcoach]

OK. so we have a rule that is confusing and contradicts itself. GREAT!!!!


My questions are this: How are we to determine if the foul occured before /after the ball was kicked? I know some will be very easy, but what about the one that happend on the LJ side of the formation. With LJ leaving on the snap and he looks over his shoulder and sees it, how can he determine when the ball was kicked?

So PSK ONLY can occur while the ball is in the air from a kick. Before the kick and once R gains possesion (how ever it happens) PSK can not take place.


I "assume" (uh oh)that when in doubt, it happened after??? the kick.

Seems NF would have made it very easy and just said if the foul happens on a kick play but before the kick ended.

[Mike Simonds]

KWH brought up a good point. Under PSK the rule book says something like this: "during a scrimmage kick", not "during a scrimmage kick down".

Coach has a good point that I agree with: it would be much easier to enforce PSK if PSK rules applied from the start of the down to when the kick ends. Also, this interpretation fits in with the theory of loose ball plays and fouls during the loose ball period. Like for example, if A64 holds as QB A12 drops back to pass but before the pass is thrown. The loose ball play includes A12's run before the pass.

Both of you have good points. I realize that further research is necessary.

[KWH]

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
OK. so we have a rule that is confusing and contradicts itself. GREAT!!!!

Unfortunatly coach you are correct. You can also expect it to take a couple of years to get all the wording corrected and in sync in the different NFHS publications.

My questions are this: How are we to determine if the foul occured before /after the ball was kicked? I know some will be very easy, but what about the one that happend on the LJ side of the formation. With LJ leaving on the snap and he looks over his shoulder and sees it, how can he determine when the ball was kicked?

My advice would be to
A) See the foul,
B) Look back at the kicker,
C) Throw the flag!

When you look back at the kicker if;
A) He still has the ball PSK is not in effect
B) If the ball is gone, PSK "could be" in effect

So PSK ONLY can occur while the ball is in the air from a kick. Before the kick and once R gains possesion (how ever it happens) PSK can not take place.

Well sort of; PSK can only occur during a "Scrimmage kick."
For the purpose of NFHS PSK enforcment "scrimmage kick" is defined as only the period of time beginning with the kicked ball crossing the Expanded Neutral Zone and the kick ending. The kick ends when;
a) the scrimmage kick is possessed by any player,
b) the scrimmage kick goes out of bounds,
c) the scrimmage kick crosses R's goal line
d) the scrimmage kick is blown dead not in player possession.

I "assume" (uh oh)that when in doubt, it happened after??? the kick.

I would tend to agree!

Seems NF would have made it very easy and just said if the foul happens on a kick play but before the kick ended.

Perhaps. That IS how the NCAA rule is written, therefore add one more difference to the ever growing list of differences between NCAA and NFHS!
I believe the reason the NFHS is different is to allow for the "Clean Hands" principal. In other words "R" must have "clean hands" for PSK to be in effect and to do so they must not foul prior to the kicked ball crossing the ENZ. Hence, the "Cleans Hands" requirement begins with the snap and ends with the kicked ball crossing the ENZ.

Thats my 2 cents...

[Edited by KWH on Jul 25th, 2003 at 08:08 PM]

[Mike Simonds]

http://www.gmcgriff.com/refonline/ww...ges/11807.html

This is a good post regarding the interpretation of the new PSK rule.

To quote the post: "The interpretation is that PSK applies to fouls that occur after the kick has crossed the ENZ."

This seems fairly consistent with the philosophy that K is giving up possession of the ball by kicking it. My first thought was why doesn't PSK apply at the actual beginning of the kick? For example, the kick begins as soon as the punter's or place kicker's foot strikes the ball.

But then I realized that K can still catch and/or recover a scrimmage kick in or behind the neutral zone and advance. So the philosophy behind PSK is that once the kick travels beyond the expanded neutral zone (which allows for normal line play), then K has truly given up possession of the ball.

So in summary, I would have to tip my cap to KWH for causing me to explore this issue more. Let me know if my understanding of the NF interpretation makes sense.

[KWH]

Originally posted by Mike Simonds
Let me know if my understanding of the NF interpretation makes sense.

I believe you are on the right page now Mike.
Here is a little something that might help clear some of the water.
While this may appear long it covers all the bases and hopefully will simplify PSK for some of you...

The six things that must happen to invoke PSK enforcment:

1) The “R” foul occurred during a “scrimmage kick” that was not a PAT. For the purpose of NFHS PSK enforcement “scrimmage kick” is defined as only the period of time beginning with the kicked ball crossing the expanded neutral zone and when the kick ends. (2-16-2g and 10-4-3a)

2) "Clean Hands" must apply. “Clean Hands” for the purpose of NFHS PSK enforcement means simply that the ball crossed the expanded neutral zone prior to any “R” foul. Remember "Clean Hands" requirments begin with the snap and end when the kicked ball crosses the Expanded Neutral Zone. (2003 CASE BOOK, Page 3, Part 1 and 2003 Rule Book page 73)

3) The accepted foul must be committed by team “R” during the scrimmage kick, and before the scrimmage kick ends. (10-4-3)

4) The “R” foul occurred beyond the expanded neutral zone, during the scrimmage kick and before the scrimmage kick ends. (10-4-3c)

5) “Team R” must be in possession at the end of the down. Simplified this means Team R will be next to put the ball in play, and should not be confused with plays where Team K downs the football to end the play. In plays where Team K downs the football to end the play, Team K is "not in possession" by PSK definition! (10-4-3e)

6) The "scrimmage kick" must end beyond the neutral zone! (2-16-2g)

If any one of the above six requirments do not apply, PSK is not used.

However, if all of the above requirements are met, the accepted PSK foul is enforced from the PSK spot. Remember also, if the foul occurs behind the PSK spot (or basic spot) the "all but one" principal applies and the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.

"Keep asking those questions. When we ask questions it make us all better officials."
-Kevin

[sm_bbcoach]

Big thanks to Mike and Kevin for your input on this matter. I agree that it is good to discuss this, espically when NF seems to be up in the air about it as well.

YOu both have cleared it up for me and my crew!

[KWH]

All of us must accept the fact that the 2003 Rule Books have some conflicts and are confusing in regards to PSK. Conflicts have happened before and they will happen again.
Somewhere this year one of your associations "rule guru wannbees" (all of you have a few) will read Rule 2-32-2 and swear that the NFHS has PSK all screwed up because (according to this rule) every R PSK foul occur's while the ball is still in Team K's possession. OR, they will read Rule 10-2-1b and argue that this rule conflicts with the PSK rule.

The answer is actually very simple;
For the purposes of Double Foul penalty enforcment (10-2-1b and 10-2-1c) Team Possession "technically" changes from K to R the moment the kicked ball crosses the ENZ.
This is concept that allows PSK penalty enforcment to fit into NFHS enforcment provisions. If you beleive in this concept, then Rules 2-32-2, 10-2-1b, and PSK as a whole will fit in just fine and dandy.

Perhaps the NFHS should consider adding Rule 2-32-3 that would state:
2-32-3; When a ball is put in play by scrimmage kick, team possession of a ball changes from K to R the moment the ball crosses the ENZ.

I also have noticed that we all have the 2003 season less than a month away and we need to play the cards that we have been dealt...

Peace

-Kevin

[Theisey]

All they really had to do was to implement the NCAA definitions for PSK and the problem would have been solved before it became one. PSK is an exception to the rules of enforcement. It is an exception to the Offsetting fouls rule. That's the way it is for NCAA and that's the way the NF should have written it up.

With the retention of the double foul mentality, the NF seems to have forgot that this rule is supposed to be an exception.
All I see is trouble because of rekicks and I for one hate kicks to begin with. If there is ever a chance for a injury or a foul missed because players are spread all over the field it will come during a kick play.

Please NF, rewrite this before the first KO of 2003. I am big advocate of PSK but not as they have it written at this point.

[KWH]

Please do not be offended Theisey. I have the utmost respect for you and your postings on this site. We do however disagree on this issue.
I have address each of your statments individually and professionally.

Originally posted by Theisey
All they really had to do was to implement the NCAA definitions for PSK and the problem would have been solved before it became one.
The NCAA version would have required more NFHS changes to and/or "an exception" to make it fit. The NFHS does not like the word "exception!"
If you buy into the concept that "Team Possession" changes from K to R the moment the scrimmage kick crosses the ENZ, then the current wording of NFHS PSK fits into the NFHS rules.

PSK is an exception to the rules of enforcement. It is an exception to the Offsetting fouls rule.
Not true, if you buy into the concept that "Team Possession" changes from K to R the moment the scrimmage kick crosses the ENZ, then existing Rules 10-2-1b and 10-2-1c fit nicely into the PSK package!

That's the way it is for NCAA and that's the way the NF should have written it up.
If the NFHS had written it up this way the IMHO "Team possession would have to change a the snap and we would open up another can of worms. I don't think we need to go there.

With the retention of the double foul mentality, the NF seems to have forgot that this rule is supposed to be an exception.
Using NFHS philosphy, it is not an exception. It is rather a new enforcment spot, and also "Team Possession" changes when the ball crosses the ENZ. Certainly you are not suggesting we eliminate the double foul mentatilty! If we did that it would effect all change of possession plays and I don't think we would want to go there!

All I see is trouble because of rekicks and I for one hate kicks to begin with.
Re-Kicks are generally a result of a "Double foul".
In theory PSK should eliminate rekicks as the double foul aspect is removed once "R" declines any "K" foul.

If there is ever a chance for a injury or a foul missed because players are spread all over the field it will come during a kick play.
I could not agree with you more!!!

Please NF, rewrite this before the first KO of 2003. I am big advocate of PSK but not as they have it written at this point.
Sorry Theisey, but I must respectfully disagree!