PSK questions (sorry long)

[bluduc]

Just some questions on Fed rules. Let me explain I have call NCAA for 21 years, never Fed but I would like to learn. I have
sent off for a Fed rule book.
What is ENZ?
What is a double foul? Is that like offseting fouls in NCAA?
When does a scrimmage kick begin and end?
Thanks.



Bluduc

[Theisey]

If you know NCAA rules, you'll see that PSK is an exception.
Considering NF has used the previous spot for the enforcment spot on loose ball plays (and still is)"Except" for PSK. That by defintion, makes PSK an "Exception" under NF rules.

No, I do not buy into the concept the team possession changes when the kicked ball passes the ENZ. I stated that PSK is an exception to the offsetting fouls rule. That is true for NCAA and that is what I think as a long time official of both codes, should have been applied to our NF version of PSK.

I never said to eliminate double foul/offsetting fouls. I said that PSK should be an exception to that under NF rules.
The way PSK is written for NF and as I see it being interpertated in this fourm, other forums and from some documentation I'm now starting to receive, a double foul while the status of the ball is a kick will result in offsetting fouls, a replay and that means a rekick.
That is what I do not think is right and not the way PSK is handled under NCAA rules. I don't care about NFL rules as they can dance to whatever tune they want too. The PSK concept for NCAA is designed to allow team-B to keep the ball even though they fouled during scrimmage kick play. Team-A foul does not affect that.

PSK concept for NF does not allow that when a team-K foul such as for six players on the LOS occurs coupled with a clip down field during the kick.

If I may, I'll quote Jerry Diehl "since the kicking team has chosen to punt because if did not make the line to gain, the rationale was that the kicking team should not be able to retain possession of the ball in those situations."

He should have stated that the situation is when team-R had fouled during the play while the ball was loose as a result of the kick.
However as we all can see, they maintained that a team-K foul will offset this team-R foul. That's wrong and not keeping with the intent of PSK. The timing of the foul is also a wrong in concept and will be a problem for officials.

By any chance did Oregon participate in the PSK experiment?
I know KY did. The problem I have is at seasons end, all these rule inconsistencies could/should have been documented and forwared on up the chain of command to the committee so the rewording of the rules in every place required would be completed prior to printing.

I read someplace where it was stated that it could take 2 or 3 seasons to work out the kinks in this rule. My contention is that the experimental seasons are to take care of that. The final rule wording put in place that makes the change easy to officiate. The rules committee failed to do that.

[KWH]

Originally posted by Theisey

Theisey-
I will have to break you message down and answer your individual questions.

If you know NCAA rules, you'll see that PSK is an exception.
Considering NF has used the previous spot for the enforcment spot on loose ball plays (and still is)"Except" for PSK. That by defintion, makes PSK an "Exception" under NF rules.
I disagree, it is an exception in NCAA and it is a new enforcment spot in NFHS! But if you want to call in an exception that is your right. Just so long as you enfoce the penalty as per the NFHS rules.

No, I do not buy into the concept the team possession changes when the kicked ball passes the ENZ. I stated that PSK is an exception to the offsetting fouls rule. That is true for NCAA and that is what I think as a long time official of both codes, should have been applied to our NF version of PSK.
If you choose not to buy-in to that concept then perhaps another concept may work better. Take a look at 2003 NFHS Rule Book Page 66 "Football Fundamentals.I(3) which states: A loose ball is in possession of the team whose player was last in possession unless post scrimmage kick applies.


I never said to eliminate double foul/offsetting fouls. I said that PSK should be an exception to that under NF rules.
Theisey, NO EXCEPTION IS REQUIRED!!! NFHS Rule 10-2-1c gives YOU exactly what YOU are looking for and that is the right of R to keep the ball. And to do so all R has to do is decline the K foul (if they have met all the requirments of PSK).

The way PSK is written for NF and as I see it being interpertated in this fourm, other forums and from some documentation I'm now starting to receive, a double foul while the status of the ball is a kick will result in offsetting fouls, a replay and that means a rekick.
That is what I do not think is right and not the way PSK is handled under NCAA rules.
The people that are rambling on on the other websites areWRONG!!! THEY ARE READING TOO MUCH INTO IT. They are picking up on the conflicts in the Rule Books and are confused. But unfortunatly along with being confused they are printing misleading information.

For simplification purposes lets take look at the play in question:
Play: K's ball, fourth and ten from its own 10-yard line. K1's punt is downed at K's 40-yard line. While the kick was in flight R2 blocks K3 in the back at K's 35-yard line. At the snap K was flagged for an illegal formation (6 on the line.)
Ruling: R may gain possession by declining the penalty for K4's foul. K could then accept the penalty for R2's foul and PSK applies. The penalty is enforced from the end of the kick, since that spot is behind the spot of the foul, yeilding first and 10 for R from the 50 yard line. If R accepts K's penalty, the penalties offset and the down is replayed.
This ruling is fully supported by NFHS 10-2-1c since the R captain delined the K foul. This ruling would also be fully supported by NFHS 10-2-1c had the R captain accepted K's foul.
If you would like add a facemask foul against K on the 50 yard line. As long as R declines both the Facemask and the Illegal Formation they get to keep the football after enforcment of the R foul.

As a sidebar it is my belief that while the wording in the NCAA rule book might be slightly different the result of this play is the same under NCAA penalty enforcement provisions.

I don't care about NFL rules as they can dance to whatever tune they want too.
I concur!!!

The PSK concept for NCAA is designed to allow team-B to keep the ball even though they fouled during scrimmage kick play. Team-A foul does not affect that.
That is the whole point of entire post! The NFHS concept is EXACTLY the same concept

PSK concept for NF does not allow that when a team-K foul such as for six players on the LOS occurs coupled with a clip down field during the kick.
That statment is incorrect. If all the conditions of PSK are met, and even if a foul occurs agains both team. If R declines K's foul they WILL retain the football! Unfortunatly Theisey it appears you have been misled.

If I may, I'll quote Jerry Diehl "since the kicking team has chosen to punt because if did not make the line to gain, the rationale was that the kicking team should not be able to retain possession of the ball in those situations."
The kicking team will retain the football after enforcment of any accepted R foul

He should have stated that the situation is when team-R had fouled during the play while the ball was loose as a result of the kick.
However as we all can see, they maintained that a team-K foul will offset this team-R foul. That's wrong and not keeping with the intent of PSK. The timing of the foul is also a wrong in concept and will be a problem for officials.
WE CAN NOT ALL SEE YOUR POINT! YOU'RE INTERETATION IS WRONG!!! R gets to keep the ball just like the NCAA rules AS LONG AS ALL THE PROVISIONS OF PSK ARE MET!
Jerry DeihL also stated "the double foul provisions remains the same"
Unfortunatly many have misuderstood what he meant by this. Of course it "remains the same" as I have explained above BUT REMEMBER, IF R DELINCES ALL K FOUL'S, A DOUBLE FOUL SITUATION NO LONGER EXISTS!!!

By any chance did Oregon participate in the PSK experiment?
I know KY did. The problem I have is at seasons end, all these rule inconsistencies could/should have been documented and forwarded on up the chain of command to the committee so the rewording of the rules in every place required would be completed prior to printing.
No, OREGON experimented with the rule that requires 5 players on each side of the kicker during a FREE KICK.
To the best of my knowledge no information was recorded from officials regarding the experimental rule.

I read someplace where it was stated that it could take 2 or 3 seasons to work out the kinks in this rule. My contention is that the experimental seasons are to take care of that. The final rule wording put in place that makes the change easy to officiate. The rules committee failed to do that.
[b] You are right on the money on this one! They did a lousey job! But lets spin it around and look at the bright side. NFHS now has PSK. Now we just need to get the wordings correct since it has become quite obvious that because of the lousy job the committee did of writing it down on paper some confusion exsists...

In closing
Theisey, I would hope you would consider all of my resposnse's to you as a professional disagreement and therefore take nothing I have said as personal. I would also hope we could work a game together someday. (But not the first one of this coming season!)

[Theisey]

I do not have any NF books yet, we don't get them until mid-August what I know about the NF version of PSK is from a few printed sources, press releases and forums like this.

The NF web site has updated info except for the rules revisions interpretation section. That still points to 2002 rules. The 2003 changes became public January 2003 and we still don't have offical interpretations yet? I don't even want to print how I feel about that.


Now, let me quote one play from printed material I put a lot of faith in. It's a play from the 2003 Football Rules Differences Manual. I trust the authors and use their material quite frequently to prepare for both codes I work. All material is crosschecked and as I understand been validated with the rules chairmen of the appropriated codes.

Tell me if you agree with it. Here's the play.

Fourth and 10 on team K's 35 yardline. At the snap, K2 is illegally in motion. K1 punts. While ths kick is airborne and well beyond the line, R5 illegally blocks below the waist at team K's 45 yardline. The kick is caught is caught by R2 on his 30 and advanced to his 40.

In my mind PSK should apply to both codes.
Here's the NCAA ruling: If team R wishes to keep the ball and avoid offsetting fouls, they must decline K2's penalty.....
the remainder of the words show where the foul is marched off from.

Now here is the NFHS ruling: Because both teams fouled before a change of possession. the fouls offset and the down is replayed from team K's 35 yardline .

I say that the NF has it wrong. The result should be the same as the NCAA ruling.
If I read your response correctly, you think the result is the same as the NCAA. Others I've talked to besides the writers of this book are saying that there is a rules difference as it relates to what are double fouls or offsetting fouls.

If you want to come out east and join my NF organization, I'd have no problem with working a game. We just might have some PSK problems, but other than that I see no other difficulties.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Theisey
If you know NCAA rules, you'll see that PSK is an exception.
Considering NF has used the previous spot for the enforcment spot on loose ball plays (and still is)"Except" for PSK. That by defintion, makes PSK an "Exception" under NF rules.

Remember how long it took to get a PSK rule into NFHS book? Part of the problem was the use of the word "exception" and if you carefully read the rule book that word is only used once in a statement that says the current PSK rule is not an exception.

The objective of the NFHS rules makers is to maintain a simple and easy to understand book and if they start including exceptions they miss the mark.

As for the double foul. Where possession actually changes determines the enforcement. For instance, is it equitable for K to commit a motion penalty and R to commit a PSK foul and have them offset? That could happen if team possession changes when the kick ends.

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by Theisey
[B]Tell me if you agree with it. Here's the play.

Fourth and 10 on team K's 35 yardline. At the snap, K2 is illegally in motion. K1 punts. While ths kick is airborne and well beyond the line, R5 illegally blocks below the waist at team K's 45 yardline. The kick is caught is caught by R2 on his 30 and advanced to his 40.

Now here is the NFHS ruling: Because both teams fouled before a change of possession. the fouls offset and the down is replayed from team K's 35 yardline .

** I agree that NF has it wrong. I am under the belief that once the ball crosses the ENZ {expanded neutral zone} possesion has changed. The kicking team has thoughtfully given the ball away. PSK allows them to continue to give the ball away. IN this play, PSk exists. R declines K's foul, penalize the ill block. Game on and no problems....


Give NF the cudos it needs for adding this in. The one where NF needs to really look at is the same play, but R5's block is BEFORE the kick happens. Now, K gave up the ball, but since it happened before it crossed the ENZ, now you get into the dbl foul, wipe out kick, replay down.

Thanks for the spirited debate!! I think I just might have a handel on PSK. I have been reading, re-reading it ect...
THANKS!!!

[James Neil]

Originally posted by KWH



No, OREGON experimented with the rule that requires 5 players on each side of the kicker during a FREE KICK.
To the best of my knowledge no information was recorded from officials regarding the experimental rule.


[/b]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Hummmm????? I hope this was just a typo KWH. You see we Southern Or. boys experimented with the kicking team having at least 4 players each side of the kicker at the kick.

[cowbyfan1]

One thing that was mentioned before that brings up a good point on this PSK and the ball having to clean the NZ and that concerns the LJ's mechanic. He is going to stay put until the ball crosses the NZ in case he has a flag on his side of the field to properly determins if it is PSK. That could lead to a bit of a problem on coverage upfield once it does cross.

[Theisey]

Cowboy, nearly all NF games in my area are with four officials. The LJ starts off down field and the HL stays until the kicked ball crosses the NZ. Then he drifts on down. For him to stay another second shouldn't be a problem. At least I don't think it will be.

[Theisey]

Originally posted by Ed Hickland
Remember how long it took to get a PSK rule into NFHS book? Part of the problem was the use of the word "exception" and if you carefully read the rule book that word is only used once in a statement that says the current PSK rule is not an exception.

The objective of the NFHS rules makers is to maintain a simple and easy to understand book and if they start including exceptions they miss the mark.

As for the double foul. Where possession actually changes determines the enforcement. For instance, is it equitable for K to commit a motion penalty and R to commit a PSK foul and have them offset? That could happen if team possession changes when the kick ends. [/B]

I hear ya Ed. But if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. As much as they try to say this is not an exception, I'm not convinced. As far as making it simple and easy, they failed in my opinion by just adding a "timing factor" to the foul. That's not making it simple.

Say about answering the NF questions by BluDuc. If anyone can give solid answers, it would be you.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by bluduc
Just some questions on Fed rules. Let me explain I have call NCAA for 21 years, never Fed but I would like to learn. I have
sent off for a Fed rule book.
What is ENZ?

The expanded neutral zone is the 6 x 8 area that appears magically with the snap of the ball for blocking purposes. Blocking below the waist and now blocking in the back are allowed in this zone. NCAA does not need this zone. Also, except for the PSK, the expanded neutral zone disintegrates once the ball leaves the zone.

What is a double foul? Is that like offseting fouls in NCAA?

Not having called NCAA rules I just learned something. Yes, a double foul (NFHS 2-16-2b) would be equivalent to a offsetting fouls (NCAA 10-1-4); however, NCAA handles possession changes with exceptions -- Exception is verboten for NFHS. NFHS chooses to create rule sections (10-2-1 and 10-2-2) to address the same thing.

When does a scrimmage kick begin and end?

A scrimmage kick begins when the ball is legally kicked with the knee, lower leg or foot and ends when a player either gains possession or the ball becomes dead while not in player possession.

Thanks.



Bluduc

Hope this helps.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Theisey
Cowboy, nearly all NF games in my area are with four officials. The LJ starts off down field and the HL stays until the kicked ball crosses the NZ. Then he drifts on down. For him to stay another second shouldn't be a problem. At least I don't think it will be.

Four officials and PSK coverage could be a problem.

My thought is have the HL delay to assure the ENZ is cleared. If there is a delay by the kicker the LJ has all the territory behind the U to watch for illegal acts by R. One problem is LJ must know when the ball is kicked. There is a physics problem, that is, sound travels slower than light. The LJ hears the sound of the ball being kicked, if he can hear it at all.

I would appreciate any ideas from others.

[KWH]

Originally posted by James Neil

[/B]

Hummmm????? I hope this was just a typo KWH. You see we Southern Or. boys experimented with the kicking team having at least 4 players each side of the kicker at the kick. [/B][/QUOTE]

It was a typo James. Portland (like the rest of the state)required 4 players on each side of the kicker. I haven't seen any of thoses infamous "memo's" so I don't believe we are "experimenting" with any new rules this year.
Good catch James and thank you.

[KWH]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sm_bbcoach

The one where NF needs to really look at is the same play, but R5's block is BEFORE the kick happens. Now, K gave up the ball, but since it happened before it crossed the ENZ, now you get into the dbl foul, wipe out kick, replay down.
[/B]

I'll give up the ONE PLAY you described (which I believe has caused alot of the confusion surrounding PSK) as a tradeoff for having the ability to enforce PSK in High school ball.
I won't tell you how to officiate. That being said I would "SUGGEST" the following: If ever a timing issue occurs and it is not clear if the ball had crossed the line prior to the foul, "PERHAPS" you error in favor of the ball had already crossed the line...

-Kevin

[bluduc]

Thamks Ed , that makes it clear now.
You are correct about NCAA and exceptions.
ENZ is like the legal clipping zone under NCAA. 10 yds wide,
6 ydr. deep centered on the center of the off. formation. Another exception! Also a legal blocking zone (same size) for
blocking in the back. Another exception!
Also a blocking below the waist zone 7 yds. in any direction from the center of the off. formation behind the nz and 10 yrd. beyond the nz. Another exception!
Three exceptions on the same play. Factor in holding,chop block ( high-low, low- high, low-low), blocking toward the original position of the ball, was the blocker in motion at the snap, gives the R and U lot to do for the first 5-8 seconds.
And BJ #itches about how rough he has it.

PSK just uses the LOS or NZ as beyond or behind.
Looks like to me the new Fed PSK rule will require changing some wording or add an exception.
NCAA has the exception worded so "clean hands" can apply also, by including "on any change of possession".
Don't know if Fed includes this.
PSK is easy to enforce. 4 conditions must be met.
1. the foul is by Team B (R)

2. the foul takes place during a scrimmage kick play ( not the try) in which the ball crosses the netral zone.that is at the time the foul takes place the ball has not come into player possession or is dead by rule.

3. the foul occurs three yards or more beyond the NZ.

4. the ball belongs to team B(R)when the down ends.
If the kick ends in B's end zone the 20 yd line is taken as the end-of-the-kick spot.
Scrimmage kick plays begin at the snap and ends when ball becomes dead by rule or is in player possion.

Thanks again, Bluduc

[Edited by bluduc on Jul 28th, 2003 at 01:54 PM]