Hitting in the facemask

[Welpe]

Pushing by or on the ball carrier is legal. Striking is not.

[Rickwill]

ok thanks, so Illegal use of hands, or hands to the face, doesn't apply if you are carrying the ball? basically you can do whatever you want as long as it is not considered a "strike"?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rickwill

ok thanks, so Illegal use of hands, or hands to the face, doesn't apply if you are carrying the ball? basically you can do whatever you want as long as it is not considered a "strike"?

Not "whatever you want". You still can't grasp and pull/twist the facemask. Stiffarming (which is PUSHing) is, and always has been, legal if you are the ballcarrier.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Pushing by or on the ball carrier is legal. Striking is not.

I am not so sure I agree with that statement. The ball carrier is allowed to use their arms to protect themselves unlike anyone else. Never read anything that suggest they cannot "throw their arm" at a defender when the defender is running at them.

Peace

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not so sure I agree with that statement. The ball carrier is allowed to use their arms to protect themselves unlike anyone else. Never read anything that suggest they cannot "throw their arm" at a defender when the defender is running at them.

Peace

I'll post the relevant NCAA citations but they are no different from Fed.

9-1-2

ARTICLE 2. a. No person subject to the rules shall strike an opponent with the knee; strike an opponent’s helmet (including the face mask) ,
neck, face or any other part of the body with an extended forearm, elbow, locked hands, palm, fist, or the heel, back or side of the open hand;
or gouge an opponent (A.R.9-1-2-I).


AR 9-1-2-II

A1, a ball carrier, strikes tackler B6 with his extended forearm just before being tackled.

RULING: Personal foul. Penalty—15 yards.

Enforce from the previous spot if foul occurs behind the neutral zone. Disqualification if flagrant. Safety if the foul occurs behind Team A’s goal line.



The case play says the forearm and not an open hand but it is the same principle under the rule. Not even the ball carrier can strike or deliver a blow to a defender. Now I will couch that by saying I think it has to be obvious the ball carrier is delivering a blow and not warding off a defender. I'd want to see something like the ball carrier winding up and striking the defender.

If the ball carrier just sticks his arm out and the defender violently runs into it with his helmet, that is not enough for a foul in my opinion.

[JRutledge]

I guess I take issue with the usage of the term "strike." If you are extending your arm at a defender that is coming, on some level you are "striking" the defender. And if I am lowering my shoulder into an upright defender, is that not technically a "strike."

If I am able to ward the runner off by rule, then am I not "striking" them potentially? I guess I would take "striking" as throwing a punch or something that is not common to the game for a runner to do something that does not resemble a stiff arm, then I would agree. And considering at the NCAA level I have never seen anything look like or seen a penalty for some kind of stiff arm, or seen on film from the NCAA what situation had fit this seemly very narrow definition. I also does not appear to me that that is what the OP was about, rather than it appeared he feels it is illegal to touch a helmet by a ball handler. And I doubt there is such a reference to NF rules which this is much more likely to have applied than what the NCAA rules do.

Peace

[Rickwill]

Thanks, the original post was just frustration on my part that I'm not seeing anyone flag the ball carrier per the rule, even when there is clear "striking" of the defender in the facemask with the open palm. Thanks.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rickwill

Thanks, the original post was just frustration on my part that I'm not seeing anyone flag the ball carrier per the rule, even when there is clear "striking" of the defender in the facemask with the open palm. Thanks.

There is a big difference between a stiffarm and striking.

[MD Longhorn]

Knowing you both and not being the one thinking what you two are writing, I think I may see a discrepancy - and that both of your are right. (Course, I could be wrong too!!!)

Welpe said "Pushing by the ball carrier is legal, striking is not", but he meant (in referring to the OP) in the head/helmet.

Jeff said, "Never read anything that suggest they cannot "throw their arm" at a defender when the defender is running at them. "... at a DEFENDER. Yes, that's legal ... just don't throw your arm at their head/helmet.

Jeff also said, "I guess I take issue with the usage of the term "strike." If you are extending your arm at a defender that is coming, on some level you are "striking" the defender. And if I am lowering my shoulder into an upright defender, is that not technically a "strike." " Again ... into the defender, at a defender... that's not what (I think) Welpe was meaning to say.

Stiff arming toward the helmet is legal, but in that case the hand is moving no faster than the ballcarrier himself. I don't think any of us would fail to flag a runner for a headslap or an uppercut. (Correct me if I'm misreading you).

[JRutledge]

MD,

You got the gist of what I am saying. And yes I would have a problem with a ball handler just off and hitting an upright defender if the was running with the ball. I see that different than the Walter Payton or Earl Campbell example as they both would throw out their forearm or shoulder to ward off an opponent. Usually this is done with a "committed" defender that is going low and trying to tackle them. I guess honestly it is a HTBT to consider what a ball handler to do have "strike" someone where I would see that as illegal.

Peace

[maven]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess I take issue with the usage of the term "strike."

Two provisions of 9-4-3 are relevant:

"No player or non-player shall:

g. Make any other contact with an opponent which is deemed unnecessary
and which incites roughness.

j. Strike an opponent with his fist, locked hands, forearm or elbow, nor kick
or knee him."

NFHS has no provision that specifically prohibits "striking" an opponent's helmet other than these, AFAIK.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I'll post the relevant NCAA citations but they are no different from Fed.

9-1-2

ARTICLE 2. a. No person subject to the rules shall strike an opponent with the knee; strike an opponent’s helmet (including the face mask) ,
neck, face or any other part of the body with an extended forearm, elbow, locked hands, palm, fist, or the heel, back or side of the open hand;
or gouge an opponent (A.R.9-1-2-I).

This is obviously a dead letter as applies to "any other part of the body with...palm...or the heel...of the open hand". What coaches now call a "punch" -- a jab with the palm or heel of the hand against the opponent's frame, usually both hands at once -- is an accepted use of the hands in blocking. When they liberalized use of the hands, they said they weren't going to allow them to deliver a blow, but that prohibition, at least as done by extension at the elbow, i.e. a jab, has fallen by the wayside, I'm not sure just when.

Doesn't it seem odd the rule would be written as above to enumerate certain targets (helmet, neck, and face) and then add "or any other part of the body", when they could've simply written, "No person subject to the rules shall strike an opponent (or opponent's helmet, including the face mask) with the knee, an extended forearm...."? Are the helmet, neck, and face special, or aren't they?

[Rickwill]

Doug Martin of Tampa Bay grabbed the defenders face mask last night during a supposed stiff arm.....it was not called. I suppose all the officials missed it. Pretty clear on TV.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rickwill

Doug Martin of Tampa Bay grabbed the defenders face mask last night during a supposed stiff arm.....it was not called. I suppose all the officials missed it. Pretty clear on TV.

Did he twist or turn the other players helmet? Grabbing the mask in itself is not a foul in the NFL.

[Rickwill]

hmmm...maybe that's why it wasn't called since he just grabbed it but didn't twist or turn it etc. I need to study more on what is and isn't a legal stiffarm for a ball carrier. thanks.