Kick, receive or defer revisited

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think it has anything to do with teaching lessons. The rules are clear what their choices are, we need to just let them make their choices. I also did not say to never clarify, but at some point they are to know what they want. It is like not granting a timeout in basketball. It is not our job to save them from themselves and go out of our way to do it.

I also think we need to stop worrying about what a coach is going to think. Teach your kids better and this will never happen. BTW, coaches are at out meetings to they have way to make sure this choice is made properly (state rules and option).

Peace

You do what you feel is proper and I will do the same.

All I know is that the teams in my game will *never* start out in a way other than what they actually want. And the captains are important, but I typically ask the coaches what they want, both for the coin toss and also for penalty enforcement.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

You do what you feel is proper and I will do the same.

All I know is that the teams in my game will *never* start out in a way other than what they actually want. And the captains are important, but I typically ask the coaches what they want, both for the coin toss and also for penalty enforcement.

When we have these discussions, I am really not trying to convince you or anyone what you should do. Ultimately each of us has to decide what works for them and why. I just think that officials spend too much time worrying about what a coach is going to do if we apply the rules that are clearly stated. I have been ultra-successful doing the things I talk about here and so has my crew as these are not just my ideals or experiences brought to the crew philosophy. Our Referee worked 2 State Finals as Referee long before he got to my current crew for his third and would not handle this as you have stated by saying "never" at the varsity level for sure. It is very unlikely we would ever have a captain "live" with that choice or make that choice without some challenge or questioning from the Referee. As I said, the other captains hear their choice and if we "save" the team from themselves and make the choice for them, we will be seen much worse and predetermining the outcome. I would much rather be in a situation where I followed a rule, then seen as doing something nefarious that affects the game.

I equate this to what we do in basketball when a timeout is requested. Yes we can ignore a timeout request when a team is out, but that means that we do so with the other team hearing such request and thinking we did not do our job. The funny thing at the college jamboree I worked on Sunday is that very thing happen and we gave a team a technical foul for calling an unused timeout. And the coach of the team that was given the T claimed, "You should have helped him out." But there was not much he could say when I stated, "The official did not grant the request, but there is only so much you can do when he is yelling at you." The coach obviously backed off and got the overall point. If we did not give the technical in that situation, the other coach would have claimed we ignored an obvious rule. We cannot win either way, so why not do what the rule says?

Peace

[Trap]

We had similiar situation this week. I was the umpire working with a new white hat ( working his second game as WH). It was cold blustery day.
Pregame talked to coaches and both wanted to defer if won toss.

Brought captains out for coin toss, winning team, said defer ( everything good so far), then WH asked other team what they wanted. They said defend this way, WH looked at them and said are you sure? I never say anything during these meeting, but I didn't think the kid truely understood what he was saying. So I said to him, if that is your choice you probably will kick off both halves, are you sure thats what you want? He then choose to receive.

To me it was possible in that weather they may have wanted the wind, but wanted to make sure he understood what he was saying.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Trap

We had similiar situation this week. I was the umpire working with a new white hat ( working his second game as WH). It was cold blustery day.
Pregame talked to coaches and both wanted to defer if won toss.

Brought captains out for coin toss, winning team, said defer ( everything good so far), then WH asked other team what they wanted. They said defend this way, WH looked at them and said are you sure? I never say anything during these meeting, but I didn't think the kid truely understood what he was saying. So I said to him, if that is your choice you probably will kick off both halves, are you sure thats what you want? He then choose to receive.

To me it was possible in that weather they may have wanted the wind, but wanted to make sure he understood what he was saying.

Why not ask him if he wants to "receive, kick, or defend an end", rather than "what do you want"?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Trap

We had similiar situation this week. I was the umpire working with a new white hat ( working his second game as WH). It was cold blustery day.
Pregame talked to coaches and both wanted to defer if won toss.

Brought captains out for coin toss, winning team, said defer ( everything good so far), then WH asked other team what they wanted. They said defend this way, WH looked at them and said are you sure? I never say anything during these meeting, but I didn't think the kid truely understood what he was saying. So I said to him, if that is your choice you probably will kick off both halves, are you sure thats what you want? He then choose to receive.

To me it was possible in that weather they may have wanted the wind, but wanted to make sure he understood what he was saying.

When one team says "Defer", I point to the other team and say, "Receive?"

[Robert Goodman]

At the same time, there's a thread discussing this subject at DumCoach, and the odd thing is that fewer of the youth coaches want the referee to try to fix this up for the players than officials here want to. The attitude there is that if you're playing the game and they're coaching it, it's not up to the officials to make up for the deficiencies of either, and they don't want to be patronized regarding the choices they express.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

At the same time, there's a thread discussing this subject at DumCoach, and the odd thing is that fewer of the youth coaches want the referee to try to fix this up for the players than officials here want to. The attitude there is that if you're playing the game and they're coaching it, it's not up to the officials to make up for the deficiencies of either, and they don't want to be patronized regarding the choices they express.

And that is the essence of my position. We get so worried about not making a coach upset with us, then we open up that the coach that does not have the original choice getting upset with us because we made the decision for them. Same thing happens with penalty enforcement when we assume we know what is best and not ask them for their actual choice. And the other captains heard you not give the right choices and they will not tell the story the way it happened. So who cares at the end of the day what a coach really thinks if we are doing our job?

Peace

[JRutledge]

My Referee on my crew actually just asks the captain, "Do you know what you want to choose or do I need to go through the choices for you?" Then when the other captain has the second choice, he asks something like this, "Do you know what you want to do?" So if a captain states something "incorrect" then he has the opportunity to review the choices again to save them from themselves. Most of the time the first choice is extremely obvious and they only say Defer or Receive.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And that is the essence of my position. We get so worried about not making a coach upset with us, then we open up that the coach that does not have the original choice getting upset with us because we made the decision for them. Same thing happens with penalty enforcement when we assume we know what is best and not ask them for their actual choice. And the other captains heard you not give the right choices and they will not tell the story the way it happened. So who cares at the end of the day what a coach really thinks if we are doing our job?

Peace

I wouldn't use Robert and youth coaches as something to bolster or confirm your decision.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

At the same time, there's a thread discussing this subject at DumCoach, and the odd thing is that fewer of the youth coaches want the referee to try to fix this up for the players than officials here want to. The attitude there is that if you're playing the game and they're coaching it, it's not up to the officials to make up for the deficiencies of either, and they don't want to be patronized regarding the choices they express.

They say that now, yet every single one of them would be grateful if it was their captain who wins the toss and says he wants to kick.

[maven]

Originally Posted by Adam

They say that now, yet every single one of them would be grateful if it was their captain who wins the toss and says he wants to kick.

Exactly. A common occurrence for anyone who has formulated poll questions: it's possible to manipulate answers by framing the question differently.

Q: "Do you want officials to interfere with your captain's selection at the coin toss?"

A: No!

Q: "Your captain just won the toss and elected to kick, so your opponent will get the ball to start both halves; would you like the officials to double check whether your captain really meant to defer?"

A: Yes!

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

At the same time, there's a thread discussing this subject at DumCoach, and the odd thing is that fewer of the youth coaches want the referee to try to fix this up for the players than officials here want to. The attitude there is that if you're playing the game and they're coaching it, it's not up to the officials to make up for the deficiencies of either, and they don't want to be patronized regarding the choices they express.

Sure they want it to happen to the other team. But if it happened to them they'd throw a bigger fit than my daughter just did.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When we have these discussions, I am really not trying to convince you or anyone what you should do. Ultimately each of us has to decide what works for them and why. I just think that officials spend too much time worrying about what a coach is going to do if we apply the rules that are clearly stated. I have been ultra-successful doing the things I talk about here and so has my crew as these are not just my ideals or experiences brought to the crew philosophy. Our Referee worked 2 State Finals as Referee long before he got to my current crew for his third and would not handle this as you have stated by saying "never" at the varsity level for sure. It is very unlikely we would ever have a captain "live" with that choice or make that choice without some challenge or questioning from the Referee. As I said, the other captains hear their choice and if we "save" the team from themselves and make the choice for them, we will be seen much worse and predetermining the outcome. I would much rather be in a situation where I followed a rule, then seen as doing something nefarious that affects the game.

I equate this to what we do in basketball when a timeout is requested. Yes we can ignore a timeout request when a team is out, but that means that we do so with the other team hearing such request and thinking we did not do our job. The funny thing at the college jamboree I worked on Sunday is that very thing happen and we gave a team a technical foul for calling an unused timeout. And the coach of the team that was given the T claimed, "You should have helped him out." But there was not much he could say when I stated, "The official did not grant the request, but there is only so much you can do when he is yelling at you." The coach obviously backed off and got the overall point. If we did not give the technical in that situation, the other coach would have claimed we ignored an obvious rule. We cannot win either way, so why not do what the rule says?

Peace

Comparing this to a timeout request in basketball is like comparing apples and kumquats.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

Comparing this to a timeout request in basketball is like comparing apples and kumquats.

I disagree, because both request can be made in the light of day in front of many people (coach included). Heck a coin flip might be heard on a loud speaker. You have the realistic potential to tick off the other team by ignoring their words.

Peace