snap over punters head----safety?

[splitveer]

We had a situation the other night where the snap went over the punters head and into the endzone. What would be the ruling on each of these plays? By the way I am a coach wanting to make sure our punter handles this situation correctly.
a) punter kicks the ball out of the back of the endzone
b) punter scoops or bats the ball out of the back of the endzone
c) punter grabs the ball and throws or tosses the ball out of the back of the endzone.

What would be the call on each? Is there any other situation that would cause us to be penalized in this situation. Thanks a bunch.

[jTheUmp]

All three of those actions would result in a safety. If your punter recovers the snap and is tackled or takes a knee in the end zone, that would also result in a safety.

[splitveer]

We got into the discussion that there might be a penalty if our punter grabbed the ball and threw it out of the end zone. I do not know the rule so that is why I am here. Could that be a possibility of HOW the punter got the ball out of the endzone to take a safety where it might be a penalty.

[Altor]

Last year, I witnessed scenario a) in an NCAA D3 game. The referee threw the flag for the illegal kick, which on that play didn't matter because the end result was the same...safety.

The only reason I mention it is because I would think that if the defense were to be penalized during the down as well, the illegal kick would have created an offsetting penalty situation instead of yardage (and possibly a first down) for the kicking team.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by splitveer

We got into the discussion that there might be a penalty if our punter grabbed the ball and threw it out of the end zone. I do not know the rule so that is why I am here. Could that be a possibility of HOW the punter got the ball out of the endzone to take a safety where it might be a penalty.

There are plenty - the enforcement of all of which is ... a safety. Of course, they could decline the penalty, which would result in ... a safety.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by splitveer

We got into the discussion that there might be a penalty if our punter grabbed the ball and threw it out of the end zone. I do not know the rule so that is why I am here. Could that be a possibility of HOW the punter got the ball out of the endzone to take a safety where it might be a penalty.

Under NFHS rules, these are all a safety because:

1. A forced the ball across the goal line (the snap), and
2. The ball subsequently became dead in the EZ (never reentered the field of play).

The fact that some of the causes of 2 might also be fouls in the EZ is a redundant cause of a safety.

[Robert Goodman]

It's only Canadian football where it comes out different in case a, but not as a result of a penalty since it's not illegal. However, it leaves the other team with options so you'd be better off there by killing the ball in your possession or throwing it out.

[Texas Aggie]

Under NCAA rules, all 3 result in a safety. Technically, A and B are illegal and should be flagged, however, the result of the penalty is the same.

The interesting thing is that these fouls have loss of down penalties. So if they occurred on the 1 yard line rather than the end zone on 4th down, Team B could accept the penalty rather than the safety and put the ball in play. This is why the flag needs to be thrown -- to illustrate the foul occurred in the end zone rather than the field of play, in case its close.

On the other hand, don't give the defense a cheap 1 yard line possession. If you can put this in the end zone and give them a safety, do so. If it happens at the 4, there's nothing you can do other than put the flag there.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Under NCAA rules, all 3 result in a safety. Technically, A and B are illegal and should be flagged, however, the result of the penalty is the same.

The interesting thing is that these fouls have loss of down penalties. So if they occurred on the 1 yard line rather than the end zone on 4th down, Team B could accept the penalty rather than the safety and put the ball in play. This is why the flag needs to be thrown -- to illustrate the foul occurred in the end zone rather than the field of play, in case its close.

On the other hand, don't give the defense a cheap 1 yard line possession. If you can put this in the end zone and give them a safety, do so.

I can understand that if you're actually in doubt as to where the kicking or batting occurred, but not if you actually saw it in the field of play. Rather than negligently kicking or batting the ball, the team A player may have done so to prevent a B recovery when the A player was not in position to make the recovery first, so why allow them to benefit by the illegal play?

[MD Longhorn]

Robert - I believe the point was not to lie, but if you don't KNOW, to err on the side of safety. Consider the coverage on this play, you have ONE official in position for this, and it's possible, due to the nature of the play, that he doesn't have a perfect down-the-line angle that you would on nearly any other goal line play. (Even more so with only 3 officials). You're right that if you see the ball clearly on the one, and it's clear that the INTENT of the player was to commit an illegal act to avoid the easy TD, you have to penalize it.

[jchamp]

Originally Posted by splitveer

We had a situation the other night where the snap went over the punters head and into the endzone. What would be the ruling on each of these plays? By the way I am a coach wanting to make sure our punter handles this situation correctly.
a) punter kicks the ball out of the back of the endzone
b) punter scoops or bats the ball out of the back of the endzone
c) punter grabs the ball and throws or tosses the ball out of the back of the endzone.

What would be the call on each? Is there any other situation that would cause us to be penalized in this situation. Thanks a bunch.

If your objective is to teach a punter what to do if he's in this position, probably the best thing is to tell him to scoop up the ball. If he can't turn around and punt it safely, then THROW it out the back of the end zone. It's a backwards pass, and is perfectly legal. And don't be shy about throwing it, either. Heave that sucker into the parking lot!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jchamp

If your objective is to teach a punter what to do if he's in this position, probably the best thing is to tell him to scoop up the ball. If he can't turn around and punt it safely, then THROW it out the back of the end zone. It's a backwards pass, and is perfectly legal. And don't be shy about throwing it, either. Heave that sucker into the parking lot!

In what way is that better? Same result.

[jchamp]

Originally Posted by mbyron

In what way is that better? Same result.

There's no penalty for illegal [action], which means if B commits a foul, then A gets the option to accept the foul and possibly keep the ball, or at least replay the down without snapping the ball over the kicker's head.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jchamp

There's no penalty for illegal [action], which means if B commits a foul, then A gets the option to accept the foul and possibly keep the ball, or at least replay the down without snapping the ball over the kicker's head.

If the kick takes place in the EZ, it's a safety whether the opponent accepts or declines the penalty. That was the situation in the OP, but perhaps you're changing the subject?

Also, your first post suggests you want the punter to throw the ball away, so A is fouling and B would have an "option."

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by mbyron

If the kick takes place in the EZ, it's a safety whether the opponent accepts or declines the penalty. That was the situation in the OP, but perhaps you're changing the subject?

Also, your first post suggests you want the punter to throw the ball away, so A is fouling and B would have an "option."

I think jchamp is proposing that instead of kicking the ball on the ground, the better play is to pick the ball up and either a) punt if not under pressure or b) throw a backwards pass out of the end zone.

He's proposing that while b) is still a safety, it is not a penalty which would afford A an opportunity to replay the down if B fouled during it.

I don't know if he's correct in his assessment of the result or not.