snap over punters head----safety?

[Wolverine]

Exactly. The ball was thrown backwards from the field of play through the end zone. Nevertheless, grounding was the call from the white hat. We should have been able to decline, right?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Wolverine

This actually happened TWICE in our game last night in Georgia.

First play: Snap over punters head. Punter kicks ball out of the EZ from the 3 yd line. Flag on play for illegal kicking. Result: Safety with no option to decline penalty.

Second Play: Snap over punters head. Punter scoops ball at the 2 yd line and throws out of the back of the EZ with his plant foot inside the one. Flag on play for intentional grounding. Result: Safety... again with no option to decline penalty.

Were these calls correct?

Both are wrong.

First play: Illegal kick.
Accept the penalty: Replay the down from the 1 1/2 yard line.
Decline the penalty: Safety.

Second play: Legal play, safety. No option.

Originally Posted by CT1

Correct for Play 1.

Not true. Foul occurs at the 3 yard line.

Originally Posted by maven

2. I'd have to know more to assess whether that's a good IG call. If the passer was in the field of play when he committed the foul, the penalty is not a safety, though the result of the play is. If that was the case, your options should have been: accept (half the distance from the spot of the foul, LOD), or decline (safety). OTOH, if the foul occurred in the EZ, again you'd have an option between a safety or a safety.

There is no foul. You can't have IG on a backwards pass. Legal play.

[maven]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

There is no foul. You can't have IG on a backwards pass. Legal play.

This statement is correct for NFHS rules. It's a fair assumption that the OP was using NFHS rules, but only an assumption. So it's worth recognizing that under other rules, a backwards pass CAN be IG.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by maven

This statement is correct for NFHS rules. It's a fair assumption that the OP was using NFHS rules, but only an assumption. So it's worth recognizing that under other rules, a backwards pass CAN be IG.

#1, the play occurred on a Friday night in Georgia. I don't think it's much of an assumption that this game was played under NFHS rules.

#2, I'm dying to know under what rules can intentional grounding be called on a backwards pass?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

#1, the play occurred on a Friday night in Georgia. I don't think it's much of an assumption that this game was played under NFHS rules.

#2, I'm dying to know under what rules can intentional grounding be called on a backwards pass?

#2 - In NCAA a backwards pass thrown out of bounds to conserve time is a foul. 5 yards spot of foul, loss of down.

It's not really called intentional grounding in the book, although it is enforced as such.

[maven]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

#1, the play occurred on a Friday night in Georgia. I don't think it's much of an assumption that this game was played under NFHS rules.

#2, I'm dying to know under what rules can intentional grounding be called on a backwards pass?

1. The OP didn't state the rule set, so it's an assumption. Good, fair, or "not much" of an assumption if you like.

2. NCAA A.R. 3-4-3 III: throwing a backwards pass out of bounds in order to conserve time is penalized as IG (even though not technically defined as IG).

[WestCoaster]

Originally Posted by Wolverine

This actually happened TWICE in our game last night in Georgia.

First play: Snap over punters head. Punter kicks ball out of the EZ from the 3 yd line. Flag on play for illegal kicking. Result: Safety with no option to decline penalty.

Second Play: Snap over punters head. Punter scoops ball at the 2 yd line and throws out of the back of the EZ with his plant foot inside the one. Flag on play for intentional grounding. Result: Safety... again with no option to decline penalty.

Were these calls correct?

In #2 not only is your call incorrect, the choices given to R, given the call, were also incorrect. By calling (incorrectly) IG, you now have the option of R declining and taking the safety, or accepting the penalty from the 2 half the distance to the goal, plus loss of down, which would give R the ball first and ten from the one. It's a good thing you didn't offer them the correct choices. That would have been an egregious error.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by WestCoaster

In #2 not only is your call incorrect, the choices given to R, given the call, were also incorrect. By calling (incorrectly) IG, you now have the option of R declining and taking the safety, or accepting the penalty from the 2 half the distance to the goal, plus loss of down, which would give R the ball first and ten from the one. It's a good thing you didn't offer them the correct choices. That would have been an egregious error.

Pretty sure Wolverine is not an official.

[WestCoaster]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Pretty sure Wolverine is not an official.

So he was the one receiving the wrong information, not handing it out? I feel better for him already.

[Suudy]

There has been mention of picking up and throwing it out of th EZ. But what about batting? Would batting a loose ball backward and out of th EZ be a foul?

[maven]

Originally Posted by Wolverine

This actually happened TWICE in our game last night in Georgia.

First play: Snap over punters head. Punter kicks ball out of the EZ from the 3 yd line. Flag on play for illegal kicking. Result: Safety with no option to decline penalty.

Second Play: Snap over punters head. Punter scoops ball at the 2 yd line and throws out of the back of the EZ with his plant foot inside the one. Flag on play for intentional grounding. Result: Safety... again with no option to decline penalty.

Were these calls correct?

1. Enforcement seems incorrect: if the foul occurred in the field of play, the penalty is not a safety, though the result of the play is. Your options should have been accept (half the distance from the spot of the kick, replay the down) or a decline (result of the play was a safety).

2. I'd have to know more to assess whether that's a good IG call. If the passer was in the field of play when he committed the foul, the penalty is not a safety, though the result of the play is. If that was the case, your options should have been: accept (half the distance from the spot of the foul, LOD), or decline (safety). OTOH, if the foul occurred in the EZ, again you'd have an option between a safety or a safety.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by maven

1. Enforcement seems incorrect: if the foul occurred in the field of play, the penalty is not a safety, though the result of the play is. Your options should have been accept (half the distance from the spot of the kick, replay the down) or a decline (result of the play was a safety).

2. I'd have to know more to assess whether that's a good IG call. If the passer was in the field of play when he committed the foul, the penalty is not a safety, though the result of the play is. If that was the case, your options should have been: accept (half the distance from the spot of the foul, LOD), or decline (safety). OTOH, if the foul occurred in the EZ, again you'd have an option between a safety or a safety.

Correct for Play 1.

Play #2 is not IG. It's simply a backwards pass, which is treated as a fumble in NFHS rules.

[maven]

Originally Posted by CT1

Correct for Play 1.

Play #2 is not IG. It's simply a backwards pass, which is treated as a fumble in NFHS rules.

One of the things I'd have to know is whether it was NFHS rules.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by maven

One of the things I'd have to know is whether it was NFHS rules.

Well, he said it happened in Georgia.

[rsevign1]

No live ball foul by B, safety on A whether they commit a live ball foul or not.
Live ball foul by B and no foul by A; enforce penalty for live ball foul by B (no safety).
Live ball foul by A and live foul by B should result in off-setting fouls and a replay of down.

So the best thing to teach the kicker, assuming he can't legally kick ball into field of play is to backward pass such that it goes out of bounds in the end zone. No live ball foul if the kicker muffs his attempt to gain possession and the ball goes out of bounds in the end zone, but this relies on judgment by the covering official.