Incomplete Pass or Fumble?

[whitehat]

Case 1: LOS A20 yd line. QB drops back to his own 15. As he starts his throwing motion, B98 hits him and otherwise spins him so the ball leaves the QB's hand in a passing motion but in the direction of his own EZ and ball hits the ground at A's 10. Ruling?

Case 2: Same situation, but instead of typical throwing motion the ball leaves the QB in a underhand or "pitch motion." Ruling?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Case 1: LOS A20 yd line. QB drops back to his own 15. As he starts his throwing motion, B98 hits him and otherwise spins him so the ball leaves the QB's hand in a passing motion but in the direction of his own EZ and ball hits the ground at A's 10. Ruling?

Case 2: Same situation, but instead of typical throwing motion the ball leaves the QB in a underhand or "pitch motion." Ruling?

Both are forward passes as all that matters is the initial direction as of 2-31-2. And it does not ever matter how they are throwing the ball.

Peace

[SE Minnestoa Re]

Is that true in NCAA as well? I was watching the alma mater on Saturday and the exact play happen and the play was ruled a fumble. It was an end around pass and the passer never got really square up and got drilled just as he was letting go of the ball. It looked backward from where we were sitting. Two officlal conferences and a coach on the field screaming did not change the call.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Case 1: LOS A20 yd line. QB drops back to his own 15. As he starts his throwing motion, B98 hits him and otherwise spins him so the ball leaves the QB's hand in a passing motion but in the direction of his own EZ and ball hits the ground at A's 10. Ruling?

Case 2: Same situation, but instead of typical throwing motion the ball leaves the QB in a underhand or "pitch motion." Ruling?

1. Fumble. 2-31-2 states that a forward pass is thrown with its initial direction toward the opponents goal line. The case has the ball coming out backward. The judgment is made by the direction of the ball, not the direction of the arm.

2. Same ruling. The definition of passing does not specify the manner in which the ball is thrown.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re

Is that true in NCAA as well?

No: although the general guideline is where the ball lands, 2-19-2b specifically states that if the passer intentionally starts the arm forward and is subsequently contacted by B, it's a forward pass regardless of which way the ball comes out. AR 2-19-2-I

[whitehat]

2-31-2 note, seems to imply that it is an incomplete forward pass as JR writes. My first instinct was fumble as Mb writes. There is an interpretation in the Redding book page 37-38 that rules "incomplete": "Once the passer starts his arm forward, it is a forward pass regardless of which direction the ball leaves his hand or where the ball lands" (page 37 bottom right). Page 38 top left is a case play saying the same thing.
Just from experience it would be a lot easier to sell it as a fumble rather than a an incomplete pass but want to know and understand the exact letter of the rule...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

1. Fumble. 2-31-2 states that a forward pass is thrown with its initial direction toward the opponents goal line. The case has the ball coming out backward. The judgment is made by the direction of the ball, not the direction of the arm.

2. Same ruling. The definition of passing does not specify the manner in which the ball is thrown.

Read the note after 2-31-2.

[MD Longhorn]

You should specify what ruleset your question is under - especially on a case like this one where the answer appears to be different between HS and NCAA rules.

[whitehat]

My OP is a NFHS question...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by GROUPthink

Read the note after 2-31-2.

Right. I've ignored that note before, and with the same result...