Intentional Grounding or Not?

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally posted by cmathews
So JMN,
just to add a little more fuel, if the "reciever" happens to turn around and catch the ball is it still illegal, since his intent is "obvious"???

It wouldn't be illegal since it wasn't intentionally thrown incomplete.

[cmathews]

good point, my bad.....hopefully we don't see a lot of these two situations this fall......how bout if the RB turns in time to see the ball and it drops through his fingers....still illegal since we knew what the QB's "intent" was??.....BTW you can come over and explain it to Coach A LOL

[Bob M.]

When I read "A pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage or to conserve time," I understand it to mean that the QB throws the ball in a manner that it can't be completed. For example, he sails it across the sideline into the fifth row. In Mike's original play, I envisioned the QB just throwing it up for grabs in a manner such that if A32 was looking for the ball, he would have had a reasonable chance to catch it. I believed that Mike's question was more to determine whether A32's awareness of the pass was a factor in determining whether or not a foul should be called. I contend it's not. A32 being in the area is enough to keep this pass legal. If A32 is near the pass, you cannot say that the QB intentionally threw the ball incomplete. Did the QB throw the ball in order to avoid a loss of yardage and a safety? Sure he did...but he did it legally since it was thrown into an area occupied by an eligible receiver. If A32 was facing the oncoming pass and it fell at his feet, would you throw a flag?

[ABoselli]

In our scenario, he's already been contacted by the defensive player in his own end zone, running for his life with his back to the field. He has no idea where any of the eligibles are (unless he has a rearview mirror installed on his helmet) and he's just chucking it up. (Didn't Bledsoe do this in the AFC Championship game 2 years ago against Pittsburgh but not in the end zone?) Having it land in the vicinity of an eligible with his back to the QB doesn't qualify in my mind as there having been a reasonable expectation that this pass could be completed, in which case we don't have to examine the QB's intent, because we can see the end result - incomplete pass thrown to save loss of yardage.

Now, if I'm standing back there and I hear the reciever yelling to the QB, "Johnny, throw it, throw it over here!! I'm right behind you!!!" and he throws it toward his voice, that's a different story to me.

[cowbyfan1]

I would have to say I have no flag here.. Maybe A32 was supposed to be the outlet receiver and got caught in making a block and the QB was doing what he was supposed to. I am not a mind reader. Do you throw a flag cuz you think that wide reciever that you just flagged for OPI is cussing you out without saying a word out loud?? I would think not.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by JMN
Mike, If I read this accurately, are you saying that A7 when he "turns around to run further back in his endzone" is facing his end line and has his back to the field of play?

I would have to be there, but if he has no vision of where the ball is going and throws it over his head (backwards) to avoid getting sacked, then I would rule that this was done to avoid losing yardage and penalize him appropriately. It may be legal according to the rules, but his intent is obvious.

That is exactly the picture I am trying to portray. The QB (A7) is facing his end line and throws it with both hands over his head. The QB has NO idea where the ball will land and no hope of reasonably completing the pass.

I've actually seen this play a couple of times over the course of 5 years.

[mikesears]

OKAY, let's change the play a little and see if it makes a difference. See the bolded text below.

A 3/23 at A-2 yard line. A7 drops back to pass. He is under a heavy rush and turns around to run further back in his endzone when he is contacted from behind by B95. Knowing he is going down, A7 simply throws the pass over his head toward the direction of the line. It is obvious he is getting rid of the ball to avoid the sack and the safety. It lands at the heals of 4 yards from eligible A32, but A32 had no inclination the pass was ever near him because he was blocking during the entire down. How do you rule?

[Smiley]

I still rule illegal forward pass. If the only requirement is that an eligible receiver be in the area, then 7-5-2d is unnecessary. What if he is facing the receiver, but intentionally throws it at his feet?

[mikesears]

Originally posted by cowbyfan1
I would have to say I have no flag here.. Maybe A32 was supposed to be the outlet receiver and got caught in making a block and the QB was doing what he was supposed to. I am not a mind reader. Do you throw a flag cuz you think that wide reciever that you just flagged for OPI is cussing you out without saying a word out loud?? I would think not.

Reminds me of an old story. I don't recall the details but it went something like this:

Player: Hey Ref, can you eject me for something I'm thinking?

Referee: No.

Player: Then I think your a complete idiot.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Smiley
I still rule illegal forward pass. If the only requirement is that an eligible receiver be in the area, then 7-5-2d is unnecessary. What if he is facing the receiver, but intentionally throws it at his feet?

REPLY: Then I think he's throwing it purposefully incomplete and it should be flagged per 7-5-2d. I never contended that 7-5-2d is unnecessary nor did I contend that the only requirement is that an eligible be in the area. I was offering my opinion that throwing it "up for grabs" near an eligible is not intentionally throwing it incomplete and therefore does not violate 7-5-2d, nor does it violate 7-5-2c. Your play clearly violates 7-5-2d.

[STEVED21]

Guys,
7-5-2c actually says " a pass intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible receiver"

This does not mean that it's legal if there is an eligible receiver in the area.

The case book cooment adds factors to look for in making an intentional grounding decision:

-Absence of eligible receivers
-the "dumping" to avoid a loss of yardage
-the skill of the passer and the pressure of the defense

Under these criteria, this is definitely illegal pass.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Bob M.
I believed that Mike's question was more to determine whether A32's awareness of the pass was a factor in determining whether or not a foul should be called.

As I read the posts on this, I think I'm actually asking TWO questions.

1. Does A's intention to truly complete the pass play a role.

2. If A32's awareness plays a factor in determining if A7 was trying to actually complete the pass.

[Smiley]

I agree. Of the three criteria listed, only one was met in this case.

[Smiley]

Originally posted by mikesears

As I read the posts on this, I think I'm actually asking TWO questions.

1. Does A's intention to truly complete the pass play a role.

2. If A32's awareness plays a factor in determining if A7 was trying to actually complete the pass.


A32's awareness should not play a factor in this case.

[Tom Cook]

I think that if the ball falls near the feet of an eligible receiver you have to be very careful calling the play anything but a legal incomplete pass. There is no way that we could be expected to know the route of the receiver, or wether the receiver was smart enough to remember when to look for the pass. If the QB is smart enough, and accurate enough, to fulfil all of the requirements of an incomplete pass, it's an incomplete pass. The only explanation that I would be comfortable giving to a coach on this play is that the ball was close to an eligible receiver. I'm not calling a penalty on the offense and explaining that I have read the QB's mind and know for a fact that he threw the ball low and behind on purpose.