Fed: time between shift & motion

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by umpire12

geez robert, which part didnt you understand?

Not this part:

After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head or body [b][i]for at least one second before the snap

But the 2nd part, the part that isn't in the rule book, the bit about a second before the start of a player's motion that continues thru the snap.

I can't understand why people in this thread are blind to the fact that there are 2 different prohibitions there -- one in the case book alone (a second before motion), the other (a second before the snap) in both the rules and the case book.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Not this part:

But the 2nd part, the part that isn't in the rule book, the bit about a second before the start of a player's motion that continues thru the snap.

I can't understand why people in this thread are blind to the fact that there are 2 different prohibitions there -- one in the case book alone (a second before motion), the other (a second before the snap) in both the rules and the case book.

Forgive me Robert, but the reason seems to be "the difference" may exist ONLY in your view. I have no idea what, "the 2nd part, the part that isn't in the rule book" is, or where you suggest it exists.

Perhaps if you were to include a Case Book reference, reading the input in full context might help clarify your confusion. However, the Rule is the rule and the Case Book is intended to help understand the Rule. Truthfull, I can't see any ambiguity, confusion or room for question in the veriage of NF: 7-2-6.

[HLin NC]

Because people in this thread officiate and apply the rules and rulings on a regular basis.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I can't understand why people in this thread are blind to the fact that there are 2 different prohibitions there -- one in the case book alone (a second before motion), the other (a second before the snap) in both the rules and the case book.

They might be different, but they're not distinct. It's the same one second: all shifts must end with a 1 second pause, regardless of what happens next.

At that point, the ball may be legally snapped, or a player may go in motion (and the ball legally snapped). IOW, one is a sub-case of the other.

I'm not blind to the difference; I just don't see any conflict.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

They might be different, but they're not distinct. It's the same one second: all shifts must end with a 1 second pause, regardless of what happens next.

"Must" or what? Illegal shift? It's not illegal even according to the case book for a shift to begin less than a sec. after another shift ended. So no, even according to the case book, not all shifts must end with a 1 sec. pause.

For example, TB & HB exchange positions, pause for half a second, then exchange positions again, pause for another half a second, then exchange positions again. They remain set for 3 weeks before the snap. No illegal shifts there, are there?

At that point, the ball may be legally snapped, or a player may go in motion (and the ball legally snapped). IOW, one is a sub-case of the other.

I'm not blind to the difference; I just don't see any conflict.

There's no conflict in there being a passage in the rule book that contradicts that passage in the case book. But there's none that supports it either, that the case book can reference. The rule book simply doesn't mention any length of time required for all players of A to be set before the motion starts.

The conflict is that there's an action by team A that's legal by the rule book but illegal by the case book: Having a player who was established in the backfield for at least 1 sec. go in motion less than a sec. after a shift ended, and continue in motion thru the snap. The case book added an additional prohibition on that action, seemingly invented from whole cloth. The case book could've specified a 2 second pause before motion, and there'd be just as much cx to the rule book; that wouldn't contradict any particular passage of the rule book either, because the rule book doesn't give any minimum time for such a case.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

The conflict is that there's an action by team A that's legal by the rule book but illegal by the case book: Having a player who was established in the backfield for at least 1 sec. go in motion less than a sec. after a shift ended, and continue in motion thru the snap.

Not legal by the rule book. That's an easy illegal shift: it's not the case that all 11 set for 1 second prior to the snap. Being in the backfield is irrelevant. 7-2-6

You're right: I should have said that the 1 second must occur after the last shift, not after each shift.

Still don't see a conflict.

[asdf]

30+ years in this business and I have never heard the argument put forth here. (not even from the one guy in every association that comes up with the weekly "what if" questions)

Either we're all incredibly ignorant or someone is just sabre rattling.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Not legal by the rule book. That's an easy illegal shift: it's not the case that all 11 set for 1 second prior to the snap.

Oh. I never thought of that.

In my mind I'd "rewritten" the rule to say only that a shift must end at least 1 sec. before the snap. I hadn't considered that just because a particular shift ended a given time before the snap doesn't mean all players were stationary for any particular portion of that time. I was thinking only about the second immediately before the snap, and failed to see that the failure to all be stationary for a second could require looking at an interval farther back in time.

Still don't see a conflict.

There isn't one.

Until now I'd always thought people who didn't understand the pre-snap motion & shift rules were overcomplicating things in their minds, and that at least I could keep them straight. Now I wound up in their category!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I can't understand why people in this thread are blind to the fact that there are 2 different prohibitions there -- one in the case book alone (a second before motion), the other (a second before the snap) in both the rules and the case book.

You can't understand it because you're the one mistaken in your interpretation.