Fed: time between shift & motion

[Robert Goodman]

What's the minimum time allowed between the end of a shift and the beginning of a team A player's motion, if that moving player continues moving thru the snap?

Is there a contradiction here between the Fed case book & rule book? Which one is being enforced?

[mbyron]

1 second.

No.

[ajmc]

"Beauty, is in the eye of the beholder", as is determining whether a player has shifted, or has gone in motion. NF 7-2-6 defines a "minimum of 0ne second" that "all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary" before the snap.

NF 7-2-7 explains that AFTER 7-2-6 has been satisfied (ALL 11 players have been still for at least 1 second) one player may go in motion and continue in motion at the snap. Determining the exact duration of a second, is a judgment made by each official.

Several years ago an interpretation was issued suggesting that in circumstances where a player may have misjudged the snap count and inadvertently "started in motion" and then tried to stop, be considered to have committed a false start (dead ball foul), to shut down the play, rather than allow the play to continue and assess either an illegal shift or illegal motion (live ball) foul.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

"Beauty, is in the eye of the beholder", as is determining whether a player has shifted, or has gone in motion. NF 7-2-6 defines a "minimum of 0ne second" that "all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary" before the snap.

NF 7-2-7 explains that AFTER 7-2-6 has been satisfied (ALL 11 players have been still for at least 1 second) one player may go in motion and continue in motion at the snap.

No, 7-2-7 applies the 1 sec. requirement only "if he started from any position not clearly behind the line". There's nothing in the rule book saying there has to be any length of time between a shift and the start of motion under any circumstance other than that. Yet the case book does.

For instance, if you go by the rule book, A1 in the backfield could start in motion a mere fraction of a second after the entire team comes to a set formation from the huddle, stay in motion for 1 second at the end of which the ball is snapped, and the rule book would have nothing against that, but the case book would, at least according to what I've seen quoted. The rule on this has been the same for a very long time, and substantively the same in NCAA albeit with a different definition of "shift". So how long has this discrepancy with the case book existed?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

No, 7-2-7 applies the 1 sec. requirement only "if he started from any position not clearly behind the line". There's nothing in the rule book saying there has to be any length of time between a shift and the start of motion under any circumstance other than that. Yet the case book does.

The Case Book is an extension of the rule book. They are not in competition with each other.

All 11 players must be set for 1 second prior to a player going in motion.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

No, 7-2-7 applies the 1 sec. requirement only "if he started from any position not clearly behind the line". There's nothing in the rule book saying there has to be any length of time between a shift and the start of motion under any circumstance other than that. Yet the case book does.

Forgive me, Robert, but NF:7-2-6 sets the team requirement, stating: " After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head or body [B][I]for at least one second before the snap.""PENALTY: Illegal shift (Art 6)-(S20)" That 1 second (Team) pause must be completed before any player STARTS in motion

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Forgive me, Robert, but NF:7-2-6 sets the team requirement, stating: " After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head or body [B][I]for at least one second before the snap.""PENALTY: Illegal shift (Art 6)-(S20)"

Right, that's what the rule says, but...

That 1 second (Team) pause must be completed before any player STARTS in motion

Where did that bit come from?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by umpire12

geez robert, which part didnt you understand?

Not this part:

After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head or body [b][i]for at least one second before the snap

But the 2nd part, the part that isn't in the rule book, the bit about a second before the start of a player's motion that continues thru the snap.

I can't understand why people in this thread are blind to the fact that there are 2 different prohibitions there -- one in the case book alone (a second before motion), the other (a second before the snap) in both the rules and the case book.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Right, that's what the rule says, but...

Where did that bit come from?

Well if all 11 players aren't set for a second..then someone goes in motion, then a team hasn't met the requirements of all 11 being set for the second...and thus are still shifting.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Not this part:

But the 2nd part, the part that isn't in the rule book, the bit about a second before the start of a player's motion that continues thru the snap.

I can't understand why people in this thread are blind to the fact that there are 2 different prohibitions there -- one in the case book alone (a second before motion), the other (a second before the snap) in both the rules and the case book.

Forgive me Robert, but the reason seems to be "the difference" may exist ONLY in your view. I have no idea what, "the 2nd part, the part that isn't in the rule book" is, or where you suggest it exists.

Perhaps if you were to include a Case Book reference, reading the input in full context might help clarify your confusion. However, the Rule is the rule and the Case Book is intended to help understand the Rule. Truthfull, I can't see any ambiguity, confusion or room for question in the veriage of NF: 7-2-6.

[HLin NC]

Because people in this thread officiate and apply the rules and rulings on a regular basis.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I can't understand why people in this thread are blind to the fact that there are 2 different prohibitions there -- one in the case book alone (a second before motion), the other (a second before the snap) in both the rules and the case book.

They might be different, but they're not distinct. It's the same one second: all shifts must end with a 1 second pause, regardless of what happens next.

At that point, the ball may be legally snapped, or a player may go in motion (and the ball legally snapped). IOW, one is a sub-case of the other.

I'm not blind to the difference; I just don't see any conflict.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Well if all 11 players aren't set for a second..then someone goes in motion, then a team hasn't met the requirements of all 11 being set for the second...and thus are still shifting.

Not according to Fed's definition of "shift". They could easily amend the definition to include a stop of 1 sec., and that would bring the case book into conformity with the rule book. Or they could amend the rules to specify the 1 sec. pause before the motion starts, and that would bring it into conformity with the case book. But as it stands, the case book is imposing an add'l requirement that's not in the rule book.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

They might be different, but they're not distinct. It's the same one second: all shifts must end with a 1 second pause, regardless of what happens next.

"Must" or what? Illegal shift? It's not illegal even according to the case book for a shift to begin less than a sec. after another shift ended. So no, even according to the case book, not all shifts must end with a 1 sec. pause.

For example, TB & HB exchange positions, pause for half a second, then exchange positions again, pause for another half a second, then exchange positions again. They remain set for 3 weeks before the snap. No illegal shifts there, are there?

At that point, the ball may be legally snapped, or a player may go in motion (and the ball legally snapped). IOW, one is a sub-case of the other.

I'm not blind to the difference; I just don't see any conflict.

There's no conflict in there being a passage in the rule book that contradicts that passage in the case book. But there's none that supports it either, that the case book can reference. The rule book simply doesn't mention any length of time required for all players of A to be set before the motion starts.

The conflict is that there's an action by team A that's legal by the rule book but illegal by the case book: Having a player who was established in the backfield for at least 1 sec. go in motion less than a sec. after a shift ended, and continue in motion thru the snap. The case book added an additional prohibition on that action, seemingly invented from whole cloth. The case book could've specified a 2 second pause before motion, and there'd be just as much cx to the rule book; that wouldn't contradict any particular passage of the rule book either, because the rule book doesn't give any minimum time for such a case.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

The conflict is that there's an action by team A that's legal by the rule book but illegal by the case book: Having a player who was established in the backfield for at least 1 sec. go in motion less than a sec. after a shift ended, and continue in motion thru the snap.

Not legal by the rule book. That's an easy illegal shift: it's not the case that all 11 set for 1 second prior to the snap. Being in the backfield is irrelevant. 7-2-6

You're right: I should have said that the 1 second must occur after the last shift, not after each shift.

Still don't see a conflict.