AFC Championship - was that a TD?

[canuckrefguy]

Hello football officials, basketball official here....heck of a game between the Patriots and Ravens!

Everybody will, of course focus on Cundiff's missed FG - but what about that near-touchdown where the ball was knocked out of the receiver's hands while he was in the end zone?

It looked to me (fan who doesn't know the rules) like the guy caught it in the end zone and had full control before the defender swatted it out.

What's the application of the rules on that play? Curious....btw I was cheering for the Pats

Thanks in advance!

[canuckrefguy]

Hey folks,

I posted a query on the football forum, but doesn't look like they post much over there.

You bball guys who also ref football: wasn't that a TD before the defender knocked the ball out? Is it reviewable?

BTW- kicking position open in Baltimore next year

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Hey folks,

I posted a query on the football forum, but doesn't look like they post much over there.

You bball guys who also ref football: wasn't that a TD before the defender knocked the ball out? Is it reviewable?

BTW- kicking position open in Baltimore next year

No it was not a catch. He has to "survive the hit or ground." He did neither of course. Also in the NFL they need to get two feet down, but still have to survive and immediate hit to show they have control. He had one foot down and could not hold on as bringing the ball into his body. That is much more the philosophy used at their level, but applied by many at other levels. I had a similar call in my State Final that even had more steps, but he never survived the hit or ground so I waved it off.

Peace

[canuckrefguy]

Okay, I think I get it.

Thanks, Rut - I just KNEW you'd be the first to respond

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I had a similar call in my State Final that even had more steps, but he never survived the hit or ground so I waved it off.

Peace

What does this mean? Survive the hit or ground?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What does this mean? Survive the hit or ground?

Exactly what it says. You cannot get hit immediately and the ball pop out. You cannot hit the ground immediately and the ball pop out. There was a very good reason the Calvin Johnson play was ruled the way it was. It has nothing to do with steps and feet if you cannot display you have control. No cheap catches or interceptions.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Exactly what it says. You cannot get hit immediately and the ball pop out. You cannot hit the ground immediately and the ball pop out. There was a very good reason the Calvin Johnson play was ruled the way it was. It has nothing to do with steps and feet if you cannot display you have control. No cheap catches or interceptions.

Peace

So, what defines "immediately" if not feet or steps? What do you have to do to be considered in control?

[APG]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What does this mean? Survive the hit or ground?

NFL Rule Book (2011-2012)

Rule 8, Section 1

COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS

Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.

Note 2: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body other than his hands to the ground, or if there is any doubt that the acts were simultaneous, it is not a catch.

Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball,and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

NFL Rule Book (2011-2012)

Rule 8, Section 1

COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS

Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.

Note 2: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body other than his hands to the ground, or if there is any doubt that the acts were simultaneous, it is not a catch.

Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball,and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

So if he had gotten that second foot down before the defender knocked the ball out of his hands, would it have been a TD? Or would he have had to take another step?

[michblue]

Under NFL rules.....the call was correct on the field of incomplete pass. A receiver must complete the entire "process" of catching the football on a pass play.

It is a rule that I am sure will be reviewed by the competition committee during the off season because of the number of apparent catches on plays or scoring plays that were waived off throughout the year.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by michblue

Under NFL rules.....the call was correct on the field of incomplete pass. A receiver must complete the entire "process" of catching the football on a pass play.

It is a rule that I am sure will be reviewed by the competition committee during the off season because of the number of apparent catches on plays or scoring plays that were waived off throughout the year.

If the rule was not changed last year, it was not going to get changed this year. They have been calling it this way for years to allow for more consistency. They have been very consistent, this is why you do not listen to the media about these plays.

Peace

[APG]

Originally Posted by michblue

Under NFL rules.....the call was correct on the field of incomplete pass. A receiver must complete the entire "process" of catching the football on a pass play.

It is a rule that I am sure will be reviewed by the competition committee during the off season because of the number of apparent catches on plays or scoring plays that were waived off throughout the year.

They won't review the rule...they've had the same philosophy/rule on catches for quite some time now...and they've reviewed it too (especially after the correctly ruled incomplete pass by Calvin Johnson) and decided to keep the rule the same. They have the rule because they don't want "cheap" fumbles.

As to the play in question, it was correctly ruled an incomplete pass. The player did not even get a second foot down before the ball was knocked out of his hands and the replay booth was correct in not initiating a review.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Hello football officials, basketball official here....heck of a game between the Patriots and Ravens!

Everybody will, of course focus on Cundiff's missed FG - but what about that near-touchdown where the ball was knocked out of the receiver's hands while he was in the end zone?

It looked to me (fan who doesn't know the rules) like the guy caught it in the end zone and had full control before the defender swatted it out.

What's the application of the rules on that play? Curious....btw I was cheering for the Pats

Thanks in advance!

It was not a TD because the ball was knocked loose just as the left foot came down, and therefore did not meet the requirement for retaining possession for an element of time.